Curious Christian

Reflections on culture, nature, and spirituality from a Christian perspective

Tips for conversations with Pagans

Published by

Matt Stone

2011-05-03

I am often amazed when Christians find it so amazing that I converse so readily and easily with Pagans. I gather many assume conversations with Pagans are unavoidably adversarial and therefore scary and best left to “experts”. But this need not be the case. It helps though if you follow a few simple do’s and don’ts:

Do … focus on relationship

God is about relationship so relationship is where we should begin. Instead of charging in with an adversarial stance (or alternatively, a timid and fearful stance) in anticipation of an adversarial response, why not dare to anticipate the opposite? Funny enough I find that works 90% of the time. Pagans are people, just like us, and they appreciate a personable approach.

Do … listen in order to understand

Have you every had one of those conversations where the other person was more interested in what they were about to say next than what you had to say? Not pleasant is it. Well, the tip here is, let’s not be that “other person”. Let’s actively listen. But less obviously, also be mindful that 80% of communication is nonverbal and the average Pagan is far more sensitive and attuned to symbolic communications than the average Evangelical. Don’t just listen to what they say; listen also to what they do.

Do … clarify what are the most important questions

Conversations can easily ramble on all over the place if we’re not careful, never getting to the meaty stuff. Try to go deeper. Find out what really divides each of you, not just what seems to. I’ve had many pagans say to me, “Oh I could never be a Christian because I love experiencing divinity in nature and expressing my spirituality through creative arts, incense burning and meditation.” I’ve said, “That’s curious, because I love those things too, as a Christian.” Going deeper however, I might find that they find polytheism more compelling and plausible than monotheism, or find Messianic particularity offensive. Then we’ve found some more substantial issues.

Do … focus on Jesus

Focus on Christ, not church; on Jesus, not Genesis; on the Messiah, not the wars of Moses and Joshua, on the Lord, not abortion. Or where we must focus on such things, make sure we link it back to the life and teaching, death and resurrection of Jesus in the course of the conversation. Christianity is centred on Christ, so lets keep Christ-centred as we communicate what it means to be a Christian.

Do … share your own story

Your story is what makes the good news real, plausible, and hopefully even attractive. Your story is what takes grounds the resurrection story in lived (and liveable) experience. Share yourself as you share God; share God as you share yourself.

Don’t … be so quick to demonize

There is nothing worse than confusing witchcraft with Satanism, or reciting urban legends about child sacrifices, or demonizing practices you understanding nothing about. It destroys conversations. If you do something so stupid, give up now. And while you’re at it maybe refresh yourself on that commandment about not bearing false witness. Yes, there are some things Pagans do which are incompatable with Christianity, but please, please, please, check between real things and imagined things before you launch into critiques. If you don’t know the difference: ask first.

Don’t … dump on women or gays or the environment

Pagans venerate nature goddesses as well as gods and tend to be strongly eco-feminist. You may not agree with their values in every respect, but a bit of tact and diplomacy goes a long way. And consider, even when you consider them unbalanced, who created the imbalance that necessitated this counterbalance? Yes, us! So maybe we can learn a thing or two from them here.

Don’t … expect others to find the Bible as authoritative as you

Not only should you not expect Pagans to take the bible as authoritative as you do, you should not expect them to take any scripture as authoritative as you do. Pagans tend to take experience as more authoritative than scripture and the Wiccan “Book of Shadows” so many have heard of is closer in function and form to Anglican prayer books and Catholic missals than the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

Don’t … expect every Pagan to be the same

Given the priority of experience over scripture (or should I say general revelation over special revelation) Paganism is consequently very diverse, even in terms of which goddesses and gods are worshipped. Not only are there many different traditions (such as Wicca, Druidism and various forms of Pagan Reconstructionism) but even within each tradition there is much variety. Don’t assume one Pagan speaks for all Pagans.

Don’t … be afraid to challenge, as long as you’re respectful

Through many years of experience I’ve found Pagans aren’t beyond being challenged, provided the challenge is respectful, and preferably within the context of relationship. The words of Peter are very pertinent here: “But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect.”

So I hope you find this helpful. Nothing is guaranteed. With such a history of bad blood between Pagans and Christians I can’t promise you won’t have a bad experience, that you won’t ever experience rejection, even following these tips. But I can say that most the time, if you approach Pagans with the right attitude, you’ll find them quite open to conversation about things of the Spirit.

Postscript: In this article I have focussed on “how” we might improve conversations with Pagans, from a Christian perspective. But in the conversation that followed, here and elsewhere, many have challenged “why” I would seek such a thing, having made huge assumptions about my intent, presuming it to be myopically focussed on evangelism (which I assure you it is not). If that describes you, before rushing to judgement I would ask you review John Morehead’s article on eleven reasons for dialogue, which closely reflects my own view, which you’ll find http://johnwmorehead.blogspot.com/2008/01/eleven-reasons-for-dialogue-with-people.html” target=”_self”>here and http://johnwmorehead.blogspot.com/2008/01/eleven-reasons-for-dialogue-with-people_21.html” target=”_self”>here. I would also ask, that where you feel critique is still necessary, to please keep it “constructive” rather than “destructive” and model that which you would ask of others.

Tags Pagan

164 responses to “Tips for conversations with Pagans”

Camille in Raleigh

2011-04-23

Helen, I appreciate your apology.

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Matt Stone

2011-04-23

@Meical abAwen. The video features a number of well know Pagans and well known Pagan events. It intentionally incorporates people in ritual settings and casual settings, in community and in profile, from Wicca and Druidism and other traditions, in an effort to depict the diversity. It’s intended as a shapshot but a snapshot only. If you think Janet Farrar and Gavin Bone, Margot Adler and the Pagan Awareness Network present an unhealthy stereotype of Paganism I suggest you take it up with them. If you have others who you’d suggest I’d include to balance it out better feel free to suggest away. If you think you’re more respectful than thou, try demonstrating a little of it. I would appreciate “constructive” critiques if you’d only care to offer some. I’m not the enemy.

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inspiraven

2011-04-23

This post has triggered a lot of heat, thats for sure. I think what a lot of people are responding to might be that the Post begins with the Pagan’s are people, and don’t need experts to talk to them thing (creepy) jumping strait into a lesson on how to talk to us.
What seems to be missing is the why.
Though Mr. Stone mentions in comments that he personally finds many reasons to dialog with people of other faiths, he does not explain this to his audience in his post.
Lacking that, one is left to fill in the blanks. And, as the comments will attest, that blank is quickly filled in with something too offensive to tolerate. The inherently disrespectful proselytizing that many Pagans are severely allergic to.
Mr Stone has shown grace under pressure, and I applaud your standing by him through it. But the fact remains, if so many are offended, might there not be something offensive here?

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Matt Stone

2011-04-23

Inspiraven, given the intense interest (and heat) this article has generated I can see a follow up article that is more directly addressed to Pagans wouldn’t go astray.
In the interrim however, I would ask your indulgece in recognizing that the primary intended audience was someone other than yourself, and this fact alone dictated that it be less than optimal for yourself. In short, I fully acknowledge it contains some things that are overstated and somethings that are understated for a Pagan audience but it wasn’t written for a Pagan audience per se. I’ve invited Pagan engagement, to hone what I’ve said to Christians, but its engaged the Pagan community far more than expected and that has led to uninteded consequences.
As for offense caused, I fully acknowledge that there are some things about Christianity which will be unavoidably disagreeable, if not downright offensive to Pagans. One of those things, very evident from the comments here, is the foundation in monotheism versus polytheism. It’s clear that the particularity of Christianity, its Christ-centred convictions, turn off many Pagans. I use the word “unavoidable” however, because renouncing this convinction would amount to you “converting” me! Demanding we do is, from a Christian perspective, “evangelism” of sorts. Monotheism and polytheism are so central to our respective paths that each cease to be what they are without them. Interfaith dialogue cannot therefore proceed unless we agree to disagree over the monotheism versus polytheism and try to keep this disagreement as respectful as possible. Without such an agreement Pagan-Christian dialogue will flounder with all but the most liberal end of the Christian spectrum. From experience I know that this poor state of affirs need not be the case. Relations between Pagans and Christians, even mainstream Christians, even evangelical Christians, can be more harmonious. But it requires some recognition that the monotheist-polytheism disagreement is intractable whilever we remain Pagans and Christians and we need to figure how to work around it.

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Jarred

2011-04-23

“Show me where I have blamed him for anything? Methinks you are projecting, because I refuse to trust (and therefore call into question) somebody that you consider a friend.”
You answered your own question. Your choice to distrust Matt has almost nothing to do with anything he has done and everything on what others who claim the same religion as he does have done. That is effectively placing the blame for their bad deeds on his shoulders.
If you find that patronizing, I can do nothing about that. However, I do find it curious that you would respond by wishing a harmful “blessing” on me in response.

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Jarred

2011-04-23

“Lacking that, one is left to fill in the blanks.”
Or one can simply ask the original speaker — who is clearly available to fill in those blanks rather than making assumptions. Generally speaking, this is the preferable approach when engaging in dialogue.
“But the fact remains, if so many are offended, might there not be something offensive here?”
A lot of people seem to get offended when I mention that I’m gay or a witch, even in passing. In my experience, the taking of offense is not a good litmus test for whether or not something was offensive, let alone whether the intent was to offend. After all, it’s possible to offend without the intent to do so too, yes?

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inspiraven

2011-04-23

Sir. I WAS offended by much in the post, while fully acknowledging the lack of offence meant. I do not need to be told that it is possible to offend without intent.
This is not about offense taken when someone ‘mentions’ their beliefs or lifestyle choices, as your example might suggest. This is a post about someone INSTRUCTING others how interact with a certain group.
Conversations with Pagans? Why? to pick up? To sell something to? To Harass? To Stalk? To burn? Hey, I think to myself, I’m a Pagan. Who are these people who think I’m scary, or that experts are needed to talk to me. And why might they want to approach me. So I read on…
I read, and became wary. I sensed no harm intended though, and in my own way I tried to contribute to building the bridge.
Even though I could clearly see down the way, a very narrow part of the river that we locals call DON’T PROSELYTIZE. Folks of all belief systems, lifestyles and such have been crossing that path for years and years, quite friendly like without any experts needed.
I’m unsure why Mr. Stone’s audience were not comfortable, or able to cross the river there, but being disabled myself I understand special accommodations are needed in many cases.
Even though I usually step over the river at the well trodden narrow area, I thought it would be fun and interesting to help Mr. Stone build his bridge where he chose, at the wider, rougher waters.
I like building things you see, and he seemed a pleasant enough chap. But the weather has changed, obtuse clouds are rolling in and I’m out of nails.

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Jarred

2011-04-24

“I do not need to be told that it is possible to offend without intent.”
Then, why get upset when I mentioned it?
“This is not about offense taken when someone ‘mentions’ their beliefs or lifestyle choices, as your example might suggest.”
Interestingly, you’ve just referred to sexual orientation as a “lifestyle choice.” This is a term many gay people find offensive because many of the people who use that term use it as a way to denigrate us. I can choose to assume you mean it that way get offended or I can choose to assume it’s a poor choice of words your part. I’m choosing the latter
And that’s exactly the point I’m making. A lot of people (I leave it to you to decide whether it applies to you) have been choosing to assume things about Matt based on his choice of words rather than asking for clarification and otherwise checking those assumptions.
“Even though I could clearly see down the way, a very narrow part of the river that we locals call DON’T PROSELYTIZE.”
That’s easy for you to say. The thing that you seem to be missing is that some people automatically assume Christians always proselytize. At least one Pagan in this discussion (Camille) has come right out and stated that explicitly.
Your easy crossing isn’t so easy for those that others automatically assume won’t follow those easy rules.

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inspiraven

2011-04-24

I apologize for my phrasing. It was in fact unintentionally rude, but rude none the less and I actually thank you for bringing attention to this inaccurate and condescending phrase that I seemed to have picked up somewhere.
as for the rest… lost interest.

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brambonius

2011-04-24

I know some Christians who would benefit a lot from this blog post. Not for evangelisating pagans, but just seeing them as what they are and not worshipers of the devil like he exists in their worldview… (And yes, I do understand that pagans do not have much interest in having conversations with such people at all, but still it would not be bad if they would just learn to see pagans as they are, not as their worldview thinks they are)
The hardest ‘interfaith dialogue’ I’ve ever had was with some Christians who had other views than I have, but even worse were encounters with ‘new atheists’. Nothing is more irritating than people who are convinced that all ‘religion’ is dumb and evil, and that everything beyond what they call ‘reason’ is idiotic superstition at best… I’ve never met more ‘religious colonionalism’ than with that kind of enlightenment fundamentalists… (I never thought I’d met people worse than some christians I’ve known, but those people did succeed!)
About this discussion, a point that those who don’t know about different types of Christians will miss: Your self-identification as an anabaptist is very interesting here. I don’t know if you’re connected to traditional anabaptism, and neither do I know much about the history of anabaptism over there, but i do know why we don’t have any anabaptists in this part of Europe.
We used to have a lot of them though in reformation times. The flemish part of Belgium was part of the southern netherlands, so it was part of the same country where Menno simons lived. I know that here in Antwerp all of them were killed (burned) when the catholics took over the city after it being in protestant hands for some years. Several hundreds were burned, and only a few Lutherans were killed, and no Calvinists (the Lutherans were allowed to become catholic again in danger of death, calvinists were mostly rich and bought themselves out) Their rejection of the political powergames of Christendom as unbiblical did not make them very popular, so they were persecuted by protestants too in other parts of Europe; until most of them were killed or went to safer places like America… Being an anabaptist was as dangerous as being a ‘witch’ in earlier times, and many of them died at the hands of the inquisition here in Europe…
But I suppose you didn’t have that kind of problems coming out as an anabaptist?
shalom
Bram

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Khryseis_Astra

2011-04-24

“What we call “God” transcends sun and moon, earth and sky.”
And my gods are not merely personifications of natural phenomena either; not all Pagans would classify their religion as a “nature” or “earth-based” religion. To me that just sounds like a fancy way of saying “Pagans worship the Creation and not the Creator,” another meme which doesn’t quite fit, since I’m not a creationist no matter whose deities we’re talking about.
You’re right about the different worldview part though. Most Christians I’ve known would postulate one, all-powerful deity, while some sects would also accept “lesser divinities” such as angels. My experience has shown me multiple deities, each powerful in unique ways, with no one deity being considered “all-powerful” in relation to the others. Many Pagans have “leaders” of their respective pantheons, such as Zeus for the Hellenic deities, but that status doesn’t in any way lessen the divinity of the rest of the pantheon’s gods.

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Matt Stone

2011-04-24

Brambonius, traditional Anabaptism is virtually non-existent in Australia so I’m very much an Anabaptist of the ‘neo’ variety. There isn’t much history to speak of down under but the Anabaptist Association of Australia and New Zealand (AAANZ) is what you’ll find linking many of us. As for steak burning, that’s something us Aussies associate more with BBQs.
Where I have been fried, at least metaphorically, it’s come almost exclusively from the other side of the Pacific. I take it’s an American past-time. Not sure why polarization is so popular over there, I can only surmise it’s the long dark winters and undersupply of beaches 
However, even over here I see a huge need for educating Christians. So many have bought into stereotypes of Pagans waging magickal warfare against their churches on the one hand (this being the fundamentalist rhetoric), or that nothing of substance separates us on the other (this being the liberal rhetoric). I think the comments here undermine both these extremes. On the one hand, there’s been no hexes to speak of, but on the other, there’s been plenty of offense taken at unrepentant monotheism. It’s important we recognize the reality of both, distinguishing the false barriers from the real barriers.
Given the unfamiliar with Anabaptist Christianity, I can see there’s some scope for explaining the Anabaptist approach to evangelism. So, for the unfamiliar, here are a few important facts. Firstly, we tend to emphasize peacemaking over evangelism, what some have called lifestyle witness. Secondly, we tend to emphasize non-coercion, so when we do evangelise it is generally amongst people who’ve ASKED us to explain the evangel (good news) further. Thirdly, we tend to emphasize religious freedom, and we respect the right of people to practice other paths. So, the tips were not composed with Bible bashing in mind. Quite the contrary, they were composed as a critique against Bible bashing style evangelism.

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Lucy J

2011-04-24

Since it’s Resurrection Sunday on the “Christian Calendar” today, I would like to sincerely wish all Matt Stone blogspotters an abunDANCED Life, since perhaps, we are all probably aware of participating in the Life, Death, Life cycle in some way or another.
And, I did in actuality, dance, today, recognising that I can’t have a “Resurrection” experience in any area of my life without some kind of “Death” experience preceding it.
I like this kind of online conversation because I find that I have to die to preconceived notions and arrogant opinions, and I do appreciate the hope that genuine dialogue ignites in my heart.
Many years ago, I participated in an improvisational dance workshop during which a particular aspect imprinted itself on my memory and often surfaces to this very day. The gist of it was this: a spontaneous sequence by several dancers illustrated that when people met each other as equals and recognised that such things as journey, pain/suffering/tears, and healing/joy/laughter were experienced by all people in some way, it makes a bridge for mutual appreciation and genuine communication leading to a brighter future.
I like that Matt has created a space, albeit “cyber”space, for this kind of conversation to occur. Like him, I am a follower of Christ, but I am also a human being on a learning curve… and it’s hard to keep one’s balance when dancing on a steep gradient.

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helen

2011-04-24

I found Brambonius’ post interesting. I increasingly identify myself as anabaptist (and am therefore too radical to sit comfortably even within the Baptist church in Scotland). A fundamental part of this is the idea that everyone should have the freedom to follow their own religion. Of course I believe that my path is right – if I didn’t I wouldn’t follow it. But I also know that you believe your path is right. And I respect your choice.
Equally, it is only God who converts people (apologies for the terminology), not humans. My responsibility is to live out my faith as best I can. My understanding of that means treating everyone with respect, feeding the hungry, giving water to the thirsty, and being ready to explain why I do these things IF asked. I do them not to try to “make converts” but because this is how I put my faith into practice – it is part of who I am.
Such an understanding of what it means to follow Christ does not fit easily within church settings – even ones that have similar historic roots. Which is why I’ve had fellow Christians trying to convert me, telling me I’m wrong about everything, that I’ll be going to hell (even more so, because I knew what was right), that I’ll be held accountable for all those people I didn’t evangelise etc etc etc
Right now, I’m not sure exactly what I do believe about hell. But I have exactly the same problems some of you have mentioned with the concept of God being a spoilt brat who fries anyone who doesn’t agree with him. My own understanding of Jesus is that he shows us God. How does forgiving people AS they crucify you fit with a God who wants to fry people? And how does anyone manage to forgive people while being crucified? Having been through an extremely nasty episode in our last church, (where I saw my husband slandered, bullied, become so depressed he was nonfunctional, and then be betrayed by those who should have given him support, resulting in him losing his job (minister)and our home) a year on, there are still people who were involved in that who I have not completely forgiven. The idea of being able to forgive even in the middle of such pain is something which is beyond me.
Sorry, didn’t mean to go off like that. Just wanted to say that there’s at least one Christian that has some of these issues too, and finding anywhere to discuss them is difficult.

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Sha

2011-04-25

I’m not sure it’s relevant whether my perception of his intent was accurate or not.
My point was that it seems likely to me that most people stumbling across this post (and I haven’t read any of his others, so this might only apply to people who aren’t familiar with Matt Stone’s perspective, but there are plenty of people for whom this will be their first introduction to him, I’m sure), particularly those who believe in converting others, would interpret this as a “how to convert” guide.
Maybe I’m wrong, maybe I’m in the minority, but I really don’t think I’m the type who would jump to that normally. Even though I know that proselytism is a part of many (though by no means all) Christian’s belief systems, I don’t tend to assume that’s what’s going on. The vast majority of my family and friends are Christian, and (with the exception of one aunt) none of them have ever tried to change my mind on religion.
And even reading this post, when I first started reading, my thoughts were “Oh, this is good. Maybe this will ease some of the tension,” but the more I read, the harder it was not to feel as though I were reading instructions on how to convert a pagan to Christianity without offending them (and thus ruining any hopes of conversion).
I’m not saying that was the intent, I’m just saying that’s how it comes off, at least to me.
Ultimately, though, it doesn’t really matter what I think. This is the internet, and he has every right to write whatever he wants, just as I have the right to share my thoughts on the matter.
No offense meant on my part, and truthfully, none taken on my part either. Just thought I would say what was on my mind :]

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Sha

2011-04-25

I don’t think it’s the monotheism people find offensive (though admittedly, there were waaay to many comments for me to read them all, so maybe people on this very comment thread have said otherwise). I don’t really care what God/gods anyone chooses to worship/honor/love/annoy, just as I would hope that others would respect my right to honor different deities than they do.
That being said, there are aspects of Christianity (particularly Christianity as so many people practice it) that mean I would never be able to be a Christian. I don’t believe that humanity is inherently better than other forms of life. I don’t believe that there is anything wrong being attracted to members of your own sex, or to members of both sexes. I don’t believe there is anything wrong with sex outside of marriage, so long as everyone involved is a consenting adult (and legally capable of giving consent), and so long as everyone is responsible about it. I believe in equality for the sexes. And the list goes on and on and on.
It’s not the monotheism that causes the greatest divide between Christians and Pagans, at least not from my side of things, it’s the other (in my opinion much more important) things.
And that’s hardly all Christians and Pagans. There are plenty from both sides, I’m sure, who would agree with me on some of those issues and disagree on others, and there are plenty of Christians and pagans who get along just fine. But in general, that’s where I see the problem lying. That, and the idea that some people (on both sides) have that their way is the only way, and that anyone who disagrees is stupid and evil and doomed to some highly unpleasant afterlife.
As much as Christianity isn’t for me, it certainly doesn’t mean that I take issue with those who are Christian, so long as they treat me and others with dignity and respect, as I would do for them.

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crissyangel09@googlemail.com

2011-04-26

Choosing to follow a religion or belief system is a personal choice. I was born into a family who see themselves as Christian, live good lives, but don’t go to church. I learned about the bible, stories and christianity from my family and at school. As I grew up I began to question everything about my environment, about history about my own beliefs and 5 years ago I decided that for me to be pagan and practice as a solitary witch is the right path for me. My parents accept me, my children accept me and most importantly my husband accepts me as I am. I have friends who class themselves as christians, but I have yet to meet a single person who acts in the way that christians expect Jesus to act.
I don’t believe in the bible, I don’t believe that Jesus is the son of god, I don’t even believe that there is only one god. So I really do not understand how any christian expects to change the way I think or my own practices. I will chat to, respect and be friendly to all people I come into contact with. But I rarely feel that I am accepted without judgement
Brightest Blessings to all

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crissyangel09@googlemail.com

2011-04-27

Just to add to the above comment, being pagan, and practising as a witch is not something that happened overnight, it began while I was researching the origins of christmas traditions. I realised that a great many of the practices which are called ‘christian’, have much older origins. I felt it was important to learn about my own roots and what it was like pre-christian. I began to think that much of the ideas surrounding the pactice of christianity have deeper roots buried in older practices from ancient pagan times. I’ve never had a bad experience with the christian church, and I don’t feel any animosity towards any practising christians,I respect all as long as they respect me. As for myself, I’m 40 years old, a staff nurse, not easily led or manipulated. I am learning and walking my path alone with my husband supporting me. I am making many friends along the way with whom I learn and hope they learn from me too x)O(x

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Rowan

2011-04-27

I am a devout pagan, and I thank you for this article, especially this part:
“There is nothing worse than confusing witchcraft with Satanism, or reciting urban legends about child sacrifices, or demonizing practices you understanding nothing about. It destroys conversations. If you do something so stupid, give up now. And while you’re at it maybe refresh yourself on that commandment about not bearing false witness.”
I’m not sure what the things pagans do that are incompatible with Christianity are, except that we don’t live by the doctrine of salvation through Christ (which is, of course, the heart of Christianity), but I’ll leave that for now.
I echo others who say “If your intent is conversion, just keep walking, but if your intent is a spiritually enriching dialogue that will give both of us something interesting to think about, I’d love to talk to you.”
For those intending deliberate conversion, be warned: when you’re talking about your love of Christ, I’ll be meeting it with my own love for my Goddess. When you discuss your fulfillment and joy on your path, I’ll tell you about mine. When you talk about the richness of your life through your beliefs and practices, I’ll share with you how wonderful my life has been since I accepted my paganism. And it’s without arrogance that I tell you that more than one person who undertook to convert me back to Christianity has turned to polytheism as a result of our conversations about the plurality and beauty of faith. My faith is pretty strong and I’ve explored the reasons for it more than most have.
Every conversation of faith, approached with an open mind, has the potential to change your path. Someday one of those conversations may lead me back to the Christian church; I accept that because if it does, then I probably need to be there. But every time you explore your faith with another person, you risk raising a question yours can’t answer, that theirs can.
So when you undertake to share your love of Christ with pagans, and you open your heart enough to do it fully, you may find that there was something out there you needed to find, yourself.
And finally, thank you for your post in the comments, on the need for Christianity to accept its darker past. I work within the pagan community to get us to acknowledge those who use our traditions and beliefs for harmful purposes, to call those people out and shine a light on them. We have to admit to misuses of our faiths, or we lose credibility and integrity.

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Kirsten

2011-04-27

Matt, a lot of people in the interwebs are saying that they find you sinister, or disrespectful because your sole aim is to “convert” Pagans. Having read this post, I don’t see that in the slightest.
Instead, I found myself wishing that all the so-called Christians who have sworn at me, attacked me, threatened my family, threatened my standing at my job and told me I’m going to burn in hell for eternity had stopped by this post first and taken time to pause. I wish that all my conversations with Christians when it came to religion had been respectful and honest and with a genuine desire for both to find common ground and understanding. Where BOTH of us could have been educated about the other’s way of life.
I’m not saying I would’ve “converted” back to Christianity any more than those people would’ve “turned Pagan”, but at least there would’ve been respect between us, and respect, more than anything, is the grounding for ANY friendship.
Imagine how many wars, how much hatred and violence could be averted if all people just thought like you, Matt.

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Michelebriere44

2011-04-27

While I know a few people who took this article as a little condescending, I liked it. I’m Pagan, and I can agree with it. Don’t preach at me, talk to me. My family has been Catholic all the way back to the 1400’s France, so it isn’t like I don’t know your subject matter, and I’d have to be living in some deep primordial forest not to know who Jesus was or what his story is. I love a good, deep philosophical discussion, bring it on. Just be prepared for educated replies.
Ask about my pentacle, ask about my world-view, ask whatever you want, just don’t assume I’m off my rocker just because I don’t believe the same way you do. We share a love of peace, respect for the earth, being a good neighbor, and doing our best to be an honorable person.
I don’t care what anyone believes, as long as their heart is happy. All I ask for in return is the same respect.
Michele
http://www.babylon-rising.com

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Jarred

2011-04-27

Kirsten: Very well said!
I also think that a lot of what you said touched on why interfaith discussion is so important to me: We (as in Pagans and Christians) in this world together and we’re probably bound to run into each other at some point or another. Personally, I’d rather find a way to make those meeting amiable and beneficial for both rather than let them become constant clashes. And I’m thankful that there are people on both sides who are willing to work towards the former, even if none of us do so perfectly all the time. (Boy have I made MY blunders, too!)

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swanderer01@aol.com

2011-04-27

communication between religious people is usually well taken,but if your goal in the article is to tell other christians to try and convert a Pagan to your faith,then you are way off in what youre trying to do.honest and open communication means you dont try to convert,you listen,understand,and move on if you have to.As a Pagan i get countless bible verses thrown at me,death threats if i dont become christian,and all sorts of negative junk.I am aware of the bible and do understand it is a good book in itself.but what i dont appreciate is when someone from the christian faith automatically assumes im bad,evil,etc without ever taking the time to listen.its so easy for both sides to do,we are people after all.imposing the will of one religion is wrong,no matter how big it is,and each seems to think its the only one.Ours is acceptance of the One,no matter how many aspects or names it has,and its awe inspiring to think of something that was here before time will allow each religion to reach it in their own manner.Try a little more understanding of what is not christian before you try to push the conversion over to my faith routine,it does get boring after awhile and it does show a definite lack of character in regard to what one is not familiar with.

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FilledeMarius

2011-04-27

http://paganwiccan.about.com/b/2011/04/21/how-to-talk-to-pagans.htm?nl=1

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FilledeMarius

2011-04-27

You’re missing the point. Camille is not blaming him for the atrocities committed; she is suggesting that he try to understand the reasons why we don’t prefer your particular belief system and point out to other Christians that they should do so as well.

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G.V. Maldonado

2011-04-27

Thank you Sophie and Hecate for showing these ppl just how two faced they are really being. Belittling my FAITH by insisting that I need to be saved. Which I do not. Please stop trying to talk to pagans if conversion is the only thing you have in mind.
and the picture slide show you have is incredibly insulting. we are your teachers, your bank tellers, your carpenters (like Jesus), your mothers, grandmothers, sisters, aunts, nieces, sons. we are not just painted red girls with their breast showing. it is incredibly insulting.
The only thing i ask of the people i converse with is that they be genuine. there is nothing here that is genuine

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Rain Audrey

2011-04-27

Mr. Stone: As I’m sure you’ve realized through the relgious identification of most of the commenters, this posting of yours is making its way through the Pagan community like wildfire. Obviously (as with all things), there is already open debate on how to take/interpret it.
I just want you to know that I, for one, am very grateful for this post and appreciate you for posting it. While the common message being reiterated on every Pagan site is “just another way to convert us” (and, I admit, parts of the posting do give that impression), I feel that this is a great step in the direction of our two belief systems being able to come together in peaceful fellowship. No one said any such thing was going to happen overnight, but with great examples of tolerance, such as you have showed here, we are well on our way.
(On a side note, @ Sophie Gale – I find it very interesting indeed for a member of an Interfaith Alliance to have such a blatant distaste for Evangelical Christians, if not Christians as a whole.
“Take this back to your flock..”? “…I can’t stand many of the people he hangs out with”? “shut up and get back to work!” Seriously? Try practicing some of the tolerance and showing some of the respect you hope to receive yourself, for a change.)
Back to Mr. Stone, Ms. Gale’s remarks are a perfect example the point you made by saying “Don’t assume one Pagan speaks for all Pagans.” Although Ms. Gale said that “we WILL” assume you (and those who follow your advice) as our adversary, I can promise you that “we” won’t (she obviously will). This Pagan welcomes you.

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Andrew Park

2011-04-27

This has been a very interesting conversation. I didn’t know all that much about Pagans before and what they believed. I have now developed quite a great deal of respect for their views through the many articulate posts by Pagans on this topic. Not a Pagan myself obviously, but could imagine myself liking and befriending many who have written here.

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Andrew

2011-04-27

swanderer01 I agree with you. Nobody should be treated that way. Christianity is about loving your neighbour irrespective of whether they believe the same as you. If you’re getting death threats etc from people claiming to be Christians, they are not `being Christian’ and in fact breaking the law. They need to be made accountable.
I would never think of treating my many Muslim mates that way, and they would never do it to me despite my being a Christian. The same would apply to my relationships with people of other faiths. We must respect people’s rights to believe differently from us and behave reasonably toward eachother and not intolerantly. I don’t think Pagans are all bad or Satanic, or “the enemy” – from reading their comments in this blog quite to the contrary in fact!
On another issue, has anyone counted how many posts so far have occurred in this blog? Must be a record Matt!

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Steven Posch

2011-04-28

At the heart of pagan culture is the understanding that the individual’s relationship with her god(s) is inviolate, and that each individual’s spiritual life is her own business and deeply private.
Thus, proselytizing is the spiritual equivalent of rape and pagans justifiably regard proselytizers as spiritual rapists. In addition, to proselytize is to offend grievously against the ancestral principle of hospitality, which is central to the pagan understanding of social relations. To proselytize is to walk into someone else’s house and shit on the table: it is unconscionably rude. This is only compounded by the proselytizer’s ignorance of her rudeness.
To any non-pagan whose agenda is to proselytize–which, with all due respect, Matt, yours clearly is–I say: spare us your talk about Jesus and the rest of it. Believe me, we’ve heard it all before, and we’ve really not interested.

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Matt Stone

2011-04-28

@Rain Audrey. Thanks for the welcome and please call me Matt. Aussies tend to be an informal bunch and I’m more informal than most. I appreciate your recognition that bridges aren’t built overnight, particularly when chasms are wide, and your willingness to take this one step at a time.
Now, I just want you to know that I’m not insisting the impressions of evangelistic intent are without foundation, I’m just insisting it would be an extraordinary mistake for Pagans to view the article exclusively through a narrow evangelism lens. In this regard I refer people to the 11 reasons for dialogue that John Morehead referenced near the beginning of this thread, which I heartily agree with. I’m not denying evangelism is 1 of the 11, I’m just asking for recognition for the other 10 of the 11. Any one of which is more than enough for reason me for engaging in ‘conversation’ in the manner I’ve outlined above. Evangelistic opportunity is not a pre-requisite for me finding conversation worthwhile (as Pagans who know me well, and who have no interest in the gospel, can well attest to). Some people seem to be missing this. Some find it offensive anyway. Either way, I’d strongly encourage people to read these 11 reasons for Christian dialogue with non-Christian religions before passing judgment:
Part 1
http://johnwmorehead.blogspot.com/2008/01/eleven-reasons-for-dialogue-with-people.html
Part 2
http://johnwmorehead.blogspot.com/2008/01/eleven-reasons-for-dialogue-with-people_21.html
Also, as an aside, I’m neither an Evangelical in the capital E sense, nor do I have a flock. In my leanings I’m more Anabaptist and in my job I don’t require ordination. This may be one of the more popular Christian blogs in Australia but my leadership is of the unpaid team member variety.

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Matt Stone

2011-04-28

Swanderer01, I have to wonder if you have read any of the article at all. Demonization, lack of listening, adversarial argumentation, this is exactly the sort of thing I’m critiquing in the article.
Yet, you’re adopting an adversarial stance, demonizing me and showing no apparent interest in trying to understand my intent, even as you decry such things as showing lack of character. What are I supposed to make of that?
In the first tip I said, “Instead of charging in with an adversarial stance … in anticipation of an adversarial response, why not dare to anticipate the opposite?” That would be my offer to you, why not give it a go? I don’t wear red spandex or carry a pitch fork.

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Matt Stone

2011-04-28

@crissyangel, people are free to choose whatever path they like. In fact I’d discourage people from identifying as Christian if they’d not chosen it freely.

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Matt Stone

2011-04-28

@Michele. Welcome, and bring on the educated replies!
On the subject of needing “to be living in some deep primordial forest not to know who Jesus was or what his story is”, we do have some primordial forests where I live, metaphorically speaking. Some non-Christians I encounter know much about life and teachings of Jesus, some non-Christians I encounter know absolutely nothing. Given the mix I can’t afford to assume things either way and have to take things as they come. By the same token, in such a diverse context I find there’s much for me to learn too!

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Matt Stone

2011-04-28

@Rowan, I love hearing stories of how people have journeyed through life so, yeah, feel free to share. True dialogue is two sided by definition.

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Katie

2011-04-28

Hello everyone! I admittedly have only read the first page of comments with this, but I am absolutely ITCHING to get my two cents in on this.
I am a Pagan. I was raised Baptist. I didn’t end up “running to Paganism” from church. I actually really enjoy church. I usually go with my family on Christmas and Easter. Part of why I usually decline to go any other day is that most days, nobody seems to be “feeling” it. On Christmas, people are JAZZED to be in church. They believe it and they want to believe they live it and they are into the sermon and there’s a certain feel to holiday church you don’t get with regular church. I tried very hard as a teenager and as a young adult to be able to have a spiritual connection with Christianity, and to make it work for me. I think I’ve been to one of at least every kind of church, from Baptist to Mormon to Synagogues, Mosques, Presbyterian, Lutheran, etc (although no one can touch Pentacostal churches for sheer entertainment value)., and it’s just not a spiritual system that I connect with. On the other hand, I feel as if my rituals and the rituals I attend are a much more consistent “experience” as far as feeling a real spiritual presence and real “religious” feeling. Everyone just wants a religion they can connect to, that they feel is valid, and that means something tangible to them. If I were ever NOT Pagan anymore, a huge chunk of my life would feel wrong. It’s become such a huge part of my daily life and my personal human experience, that I don’t WANT to be a different religion. I love my religion, I love being Pagan, and I love the way my life is progressing; I it’s as much a part of me as anything else you see when you look at me, so I guess I struggle to understand why convert someone. I know the Bible says that it’s what you should do, and my Mother always says she’d be “remiss in her duties” not to try to save my soul and all that, but what I fail to see is why someone who feels a connection with deity, lives a good life, does good for the world and the people in it, and “harms ye none!” is any different from a legit Christian as far as what’s at the core of the beliefs. Maybe instead of arguing or converting, some day we can really get an open dialogue going, and *maybe someday* even come to a place where Christians and Pagans accept and love each other without the stress or pressure of “educating” or “converting.” Maybe one day Christians will come to “holiday circle” like I go to “holiday church” – because it’s nice, different, and still valid spiritual expression. Live and let live, love and let love.
<3katie

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Sha

2011-04-28

Calling it “spiritual rape” seems a bit excessive to me, and kind of trivializes actual rape (a heinous and absolutely unforgivable crime), don’t you think? Perhaps you feel the two are equivalent, but I certainly don’t.
Proselytism is disrespectful, in my opinion, and rather condescending to be sure, but it’s more on par with walking into someone’s home and telling them everything they did wrong with it’s design.
Quite frankly I find it a little offensive that you would compare something like rape to proselytism.

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Allana Mitchell

2011-04-28

So, why does “dialogue” with a Pagan have to revolve around the Christian God in the first place?
Why cant it revolve around family life? or work? or anything else for that matter? Why cant Christians see that Pagans are people with the same right to believe as they wish?
I was once a Christian (baptist actually) and I feel the same closeness with the Christian God as i do with Mother Goddess… same energy at church as at group ritual… thats just my experience…
so… as the “pagan” in question listens to your testimony of salvation, will you, in turn, listen to our experience with our first ritual? or the first time we felt a calling to a specific God/Goddess? or is your only goal conversion of another “lost soul”?

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Xia

2011-04-28

I’m Pagan. This is funny. Study us like a science. But yes, I am always open to questions and am very intuitive when it comes to feeling out someone’s intentions. I also love life and live is to the fullest & do NOT practice depriving myself of the world’s natural beauty.
~Xia M.

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Matt Stone

2011-04-28

@Allana. Who said “dialogue” had to be one way? Certainly not me. Quite the contrary, I’ve repeatedly suggested dialogue is two way by definition and that I’m very interested in listening to your stories and experiences. I’m intensely curious by nature and enjoy learning about other people and other god(desse)s. Note that, by stressing “dialogue”, what I’m challenging is “monologue”. So be open to the possibility that we’re arguing for the same thing, just using different language.
If my suggestion that Christians “focus on Jesus” rather than the church has left you with the impression that I’m uninterested in the Goddess or your experience of her, please let me correct that. That suggestion should not be read in isolation from my other suggestion that Christians should “listen in order to understand”. My intention was merely to counter evangelical tendencies to focus on pet insider topics like the end times or creationism. It was not to suggest we ignore what you have to say, in contradiction to everything else I have said here. To paraphrase it another way, it means no more or no less than: Christians, in so far as you are asked to speak of Christianity, focus on Christ and what it means to follow Christ and not the other crap. But when the article is viewed holistically, it is also saying: remember its not all about you.
I admit these tips are slanted towards religiously-focussed conversation, but that’s because that is where I see the problems occuring. I don’t see any value I could add in offering tips on speaking about family life and work. If the relationship is there that generally happens naturally with little effort. Speaking of which, if any of you like metal, science fiction or mythology I’m more than happy to talk about that too 🙂

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FilledeMarius

2011-04-29

I have Christian and Jewish friends who like metal, science fiction, and mythology; I liked those things before I was a Pagan. That seems rather stereotypical of you to assume that all of us like the same things, don’t you think? We are not carbon copies; each of us differs from the rest.
I also found this article offensive to Christians, not just Pagans. I have two very close friends who are Roman Catholic; when we talk about beliefs and theology, it is respectful and open. You shouldn’t have to tell other Christians to behave; Leviticus, Chapter 19, Verses 33-34 says “When a stranger sojourns with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong. The stranger who sojourns with you shall be to you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself; for you were strangers in the land of Egypt.” I was raised with a Congregationalist father and a Jewish mother; both raised me to believe in the inherent worth and dignity of all people. I showed my mother the article and she concurs with me that if you had said Jews or Muslims instead of Pagans, people would be pitching fits.
Also, to me, a spiritual relationship is a very personal thing. If you were to ask about my personal experiences with my gods, it would be the same as if I asked you how you made love to your spouse. Please don’t presume that every pagan you meet will be open to discussion about their more intimate experiences with the Divine; theology, however, is usually not a problem. I appreciate what you’re trying to do here and I don’t think that you’re a bad person, but I object to the way that you are going about it.

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Sha

2011-04-29

You’re kind of easily offended, huh?
I don’t think he was assuming all Pagans like those things, I think he was saying that he enjoys talking about those topics as well as religion. He was saying he was open to other areas of communication and listing some that he particularly likes discussing.
I don’t think he was saying that Christians are incapable of being respectful and open, or that they’re incapable of “behaving,” he was saying that some Christians (and the same is true of every group, but this is a Christian blog, so it’s directed at Christians) have difficulties in this area.
And if your relationship with the divine is personal, than a polite and respectful, “I’m sorry, but that’s not really something I’m comfortable discussing” will suffice just fine, but you can’t expect people to be mind readers and know that you don’t want to talk about that sort of thing.

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FilledeMarius

2011-04-29

Stating my opinion respectfully is being easily offended?
If you look at the portrayal of Pagans in the media, they often have darker and more eclectic tastes than most of the other characters. I was pointing out that to assume that all Pagans are like that is wrong. He even stated this in his post, so I thought that he possibly forgot it.
There are generally bad apples in every group, but to assume that some Christians are incapable of conversation that does not involve God is rather condescending. Why must everything be about God? Most of the discussions I have with my Christan peers never goes there.
I never said that I expected it; I merely stated that some Pagans don’t like to talk about their relationships with their gods, which he did not mention. Again, we are not all the same and it’s better to hear it politely than find it out unexpectedly in a rather rude manner.

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Sha

2011-04-29

I apologize if I misread the tone of your post. It didn’t sound to me as though you were trying to point something out in a polite and respectful manner, it sounded to me like you were starting to get snippy over perceived slights that hadn’t really been there.
I apologize for my misunderstanding. There’ve been a lot of kind of unfair accusations thrown around in this comment thread, and I suppose I took that and read it into your post.
I mean, don’t get me wrong, I take issue with some of the points made in the post, and also with the way some of the points were made, but I think some people have gone a little overboard over what was surely a well-intentioned post.
I’m sorry I lumped you in with that.

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Sha

2011-04-29

Oh, but I don’t think he was saying that some Christians are incapable of God-free conversation (though I’m sure some are, just as there are people like that on every path).
I think he was saying just the opposite: that some Christians are incapable (or rather, lack the tools) to communicate with non-Christians about the divine, but usually don’t have much difficulty with the other areas, which is why this post is centered around spiritual discussions, because that’s where most people lack the skills.
And again, I don’t think he was saying that that’s a Christian thing, but rather that some people in general have difficulties discussing spirituality with people who believe differently from them. This post was just directed at the Christians who have that particular tricky spot because it’s a Christian blog, so his main audience is Christian.

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Matt Stone

2011-04-29

@FilledeMarius. Well, you can say you’re being respectful but it sure didn’t sound particularly respectful from my side of the screen. Sha has the gist of it in observing: “I don’t think he was assuming all Pagans like those things, I think he was saying that he enjoys talking about those topics as well as religion.” Lobbing off accusations of “stereotyping” without bothering to even read the comment carefully speaks of an itchy trigger finger. That strikes me as, not just rude, but downright hostile. Respectful would be asking what I meant by that if it wasn’t clear enough. Sha is also on the mark in noting I’m not critiquing all Christians, just noting some have difficulties in this area. Like yourself, they have a problem with shooting first and asking questions later. I’m suggesting to them, as I would to you, that shooting first isn’t a good way forward.

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Sha

2011-04-29

I’m glad I wasn’t the only one who read it that way, I was beginning to become concerned that sleep deprivation had turned me into a raging… well, you know :]

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Katie

2011-04-30

Sophie, while you have a good point buried there in the end, your hostility in the beginning makes it hard to continue reading. Clearly to some it seems condescending, as I found out about this blog from an email I recieved saying just that….after reading it for myself, however, I’m thinking that it doesn’t seem as bad as what it was made out.
I see an open-minded Christian, which I have always had the experience that this was an oxy-moron, trying to reach out to people of his faith who are generally ignorant of another faith and trying get them to reach out and make the world a better place. I don’t see anyone else doing this, and frankly, I’ll take it. The suggestions and commentary in this section have been elaborating on the original post and making points more clear. All in all, Pagans and Christians historically have much negativity toward each other, and if this is the start of a communication bridge between us, I’m cool with it.
I know I’m very sick of hiding who I am because I’m sick of the judgement, and until I read your post I felt like this was extremely proactive. I don’t feel like hostility is going to help anything here. I feel like this man’s goal was to promote a relationship with two religious groups that historically don’t “get along”. If there are specific points that you either don’t agree with, felt offended by, or otherwise don’t like for whatever reason, then kindly correct him or make suggestions, as others have here. Being disrespectful to a person who is being respectful of us and trying to bridge such a huge gap is not only rude, but it’s conter-productive. Clearly this man did not intend to be condescending.
Again, I like the point that you made (“I have no quarrel with Him–and most of the time I feel comfortable that I am still on His right side”). But as of yet, no one here has questioned this….
I suppose you cannot please all of the people, all of the time. But I sincerely appreciate the effort.

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Katie

2011-04-30

I’d like to talk to you then Helen 🙂

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Fire-girl

2011-05-02

@ Matt Stone… so to summarise “love your neighbour as yourself” ? also your links to your reasons for dialogue are not working.

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