Reflections on culture, nature, and spirituality from a Christian perspective
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Pagans sometimes say to me, “You Christians emphasize faith but we emphasize experience.” But this is to misunderstand faith, for faith is an experience. Sure, there is a confessional dimension to faith that goes beyond experience. Faith is not just experience. But faith is certainly not less than that … and you haven’t understood faith till you’ve experienced that.
A faith that works, or a working faith – not just faith or just works … isn’t that really what James talks about?
I didn’t realize that at least some pagans have the exact same problem as some Christians do of a split-paradox mentality. None of us can truly comprehend life fully with only half a truth, and I can’t see that there’s any advantage to having this half (experience) over that one (faith). And I’m not sure we can get around the split by saying that we “emphasize” this part or that part … seems to me we’ve got to “complementarize” them instead, lest we be half-withs … or would that be half-wits?
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It has been said that “cults” are the “unpaid bills of the church”. I think this is often true, as where Christians neglect core teachings, the vacuum is indeed often filled by groups espousing alternative revelations that are equal and opposite in their one sidedness. So, what I find amongst many pagans and esotericists is dual misunderstanding, firstly that faith equates nothing more than affirmation of dogma, and secondly, that experience is infallible.
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ummm … so they have their own kind of “inerrancy” issues?! huh. that’s intriguing.
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or “heresy” issues?
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Brad
Well, yes, in a way. I am sure there are plenty who would object and possibly be angered my comments here, but to them I say, well that’s my experience so who are you to question it?
Then again, maybe they’d miss the irony.
So to expand further, I think N T Wright was right on the money when he critiqued relativists for being self contradictory – in their dogmatic claims that there are no dogmas and in their absolutist claims that there are no absolutes – and that this critique holds true for pagans. There are some inerrancy issues lurking beneath this veneer of permissiveness. Else, on what basis can Christianity be challenged so vitrolically? If there is no right or wrong, on what basis do you cry unjust? If you take relativism to its logical conclusion all you are left with is Nistche’s will to power and rhetoric.
So yes, I challenge the inerrancy of experience, but in doing that I also want to make clear that I am NOT saying some sort of dry affirmation of dogma is the answer. No, I am not saying experience inessential, I am simply asserting that experience itself is in need of repemption.
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Lucy, strictly speaking the word “heresy” should not be applied to Pagans because they make no claims to being Christian.
I reserve the “h” word for groups who (a) call themself Christian yet (b) deny core Christian teachings such as the divinity of Christ, or the humanity of Christ, or the Trinitarian nature of God. Groups like the Mormons or JWs for example. Pagans come under (b) but not under (a) so, nuh, I don’t think we should classify them as such.
Now, if we were talking about that subcategory of Paganism known as Christopaganism, that would be another matter.
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Yeah, Matt, you’re right… just a bit of rhyming humour… couldn’t resist, now you’ve got me back into appreciating non-hurty sarcasm again… but maybe if particular Pagans had criteria that they use to judge conformity to their belief system, they could class some fellow Pagans as practising contrary to their “doctrine” and therefore be deemed “heretical”?
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From my experience Pagans tend to emphasize ritual correctness over theological correctness. As most definitions of hesesy tend to focus on doctrinal deviation I think it is questionable whether the word has any relevance for their style of religion at all. This is where heresy-rationalist style apologetics falls flat on its face. It is next to useless in missionally engaging Pagans and other forms of folk religion.
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Oh, and to pick up on the original thread again, I think the critical mistake Pagans make is to confuse faith and experience talk with doctrine and ritual talk.
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I think I get your drift. My definition of heresy is a bit elastic, it’s true. By dictionary definition it’s an opinion contrary to a particular doctrine, and there would be considerable difficulty in categorising Pagan religion as having doctrine in the way that Christians do. However, using my generous elastic licence, one could perhaps stretch it to include “ritual correctness” as a kind of doctrinal criterion for genuine Pagan-ness?
You’ve got me thinking now…
As a dancer, I see and experience a lot more connectedness between faith, experience, doctrine and ritual than many other Christians.
As an Adult Educator, I’ve been exposed to the concept of learning styles and the value of experiential learning and reflective practice. Perhaps Pagans are more kinaesthetic, visual, and tactile learners than a lot of Christians who are more auditory inclined?
I suspect that in the case of reaching Pagans with Christ’s Good News, it would be better if we were more Franciscan in our witness (ie. preaching the Gospel, but using words only if necessary)!
Even in bypassing the use of rational apologetics, demonstration of what might be called miraculous power of the Holy Spirit could end up in little more than a Moses-like contest with Pharaoh’s magicians when dealing with Pagans who are into Wiccan ways. And yet if God would raise up post-modern Moses-es (Mosii?) or Mt Carmel post-modern contextualised Elijah-s, perhaps we might see some measure of deliverance and transport from the Kingdom of Darkness into the Kingdom of Light amongst practitioners of Paganism?!
Perhaps it’s more of a çontrol issue involved in emphasis on ritual correctness, the same way that it’s a control issue with rational doctrinal correctness. The old “you’re in or you’re out” tendency when it comes to tribal-type thinking?
Looking forward to hearing more about Pagans “confusing faith and experience talk with doctrine and ritual talk.”
Lucy J
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Learning styles is an important consideration but I find its considerably more complex than simply Pagans = visual and kinaesthetic and Christians = auditory. For instance, I am kinaesthetic and visual yet i am Christian so that alone would suggest its not a 1:1 correspondance. Then again, when you look at my site there is no denying that, despite the fact Im an evangelical, that i have been significantly influenced by the more kinaesthetic and visually oriented forms of Christianity. So I don’t dismiss the link either.
Turning to apologetics, I would like to emphasize that I am not suggesting abandonment of apologetics, just more ephasis on alternative styles of apologetics. For instance, I find mythological apologetics has some potential. And I agree power encounter has some potential too however I am vary wary of non-contextualized forms of spiritual warfare (that is, 90% of what we find in bookshops) and would caution against using Elijah as a paradigm, precisely because Elijah does apply to heresy contexts. Elijah was challenging people practicing idolatry WITHIN the people of God. But that’s not analogous to this situation. Pagans don’t claim to be part of the people of God. I think Daniel and Joseph and Esther are much better paradigms for this situation.
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“Pagans sometimes say to me”
The initial problem is unpacking this statement. Paganism is a religious movement, a grouping of similar faiths with similar goals. So when you say that “Pagans say to you”, you have to qualify which Pagans, from which faith, and from which tradition from within that faith.
Secondly, while modern Pagan religions do place a special emphasis on experience and practice, it is incorrect to assume Pagans don’t understand the nature of faith, or that most of us are confused as to what true faith is. I personally place I high premium on my own faith experience and I know I’m not alone.
Finally, in regards to this comment by Lucy:
“…reaching Pagans with Christ’s Good News”
The biggest misnomer concerning Christian-Pagan relations is that we are ignorant or blind to Christ’s message. That we are simply “unreached”, that Christians simply have to find the proper “context”, or “means of transmission”. I find nothing more condescending than having a Christian try to “rap” with me about this great “myth”, the bestest myth of all (now with pictures and songs!).
Most of us aren’t children, and a significant number of us have studied or considered the Christian faith deeply (I would hazard to say probably more than most Christians). I have visited and experienced several forms of Christian worship. Heard the Christ-tale from many different viewpoints. They can be inspiring, and I honor the great men and women who walk that path, but I don’t feel it is my path. Further, I have FAITH that it isn’t my path. It really doesn’t matter how you package it.
For me, my gods are real. I’m not angered at some mythical monolithic Christianity, I’m not an “unpaid bill” of the Church, I’m not Christian driven away because you didn’t like women enough or included enough festival-like experiences. I’m a Pagan because I have felt my gods, been touched by their blessings, seen acts of faith rewarded, and comfort provided. In short, I belong to a fully functioning and fulfilling religious faith, part of a larger family of faiths that are every bit sustaining, ethical, and complete as yours.
Of course, that is just my opinion.
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Jason, thanks for your comments, once again you’ve given me much to chew on and I appreciate that.
To clarify, I do acknowledge that there are many Pagans who have truly heard the gospel and who have rejected it with full knowledge and that they have every right to do so.
However, I have come across many who think they have heard, but haven’t really. I don’t know if they represent an objective majority, but they do represent the majority of those I have conversed with. It’s in statements like the one I originally quoted that this can first become evident. When people say things like that (and I should point out its often in attacks on Christianity) I try to dig deeper and when I do I generally find much misunderstanding of our path. Even amongst people who attended church earlier in life. It is within this context that I speak of the “unpaid bills of the church” because much of that misinformation has unfortunately come from fluff bunnies in our own camp.
But, as for people who do understand and still choose otherwise, well I actively defend their right to do so. Actually, I even defend the free choise of people who do not understand, but if I could put this another way, I just think we Christians have an obligation to ensure where possible that people are rejecting our path for true reasons based on understanding, not false ones based on misunderstanding.
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Jason, I appreciate what you’ve said. And similar to Matt, I like to have something of substance on which to ponder…
I agree with you about the importance of qualification. Generalisations can be helpful in some instances and misleading in others. I feel the same way about generalisations that a lot of people (including Pagans and even Christians) make about Christians. It’s very sad to me that some Christians are very bad examples of their professed faith in their God. It wouldn’t surprise me at all that you know more about the Christian faith than some Christians, and in fact, I must confess that I was embarrassingly limited in my understanding and comparatively fundamentalist myself, a couple of decades ago! Hopefully, I have moved on and into a wider and more welcoming space.
It is hard enough not to sound arrogant or condescending in a face-to-face personal conversation, but sometimes e-conversation is even more challenging to express oneself in a way to do justice to the intent.
In retrospect, perhaps my phrase “reaching Pagans with Christ’s Good News” could be interpreted as sounding condescending, especially when there has been a history of being on the receiving end of ignorant and infantile Christian crusading. However, echoing a little of Matt’s point in regards to a reasonable expectation that efforts be made to ensure that the Christian path is rejected for “true reasons based on understanding rather than false ones based on misunderstanding”, I would add that in my experience, and also that of some Christians I know, the phrase, “Christ’s Good News”, actually offends many ‘religious’ Christians.
I have no doubt at all that your gods are real and that you have experienced blessings, comfort and fulfilment in a fully functioning religious faith. I am genuine in my acceptance of the authenticity of your statement. Antithetically, it is implied that a lot of Christians claim the same about their God and faith, and indeed, many (perhaps even the majority) do. However, I contend, that this is the crucial point and the crux of the offense caused by Christ’s Good News… that in fact, the Way of Christ is not a religion at all, despite how hard people have historically tried to make it one. I’m still on the journey and am intentional about exploring the height, depth, width and breadth of what the Good News that Christ actually taught (in contrast to the gospel that others teach about Christ) really is! I can’t speak for other Christians, but I do speak for myself in saying that I am sorry if I sounded arrogant, as it is not my intention to invalidate your freedom to follow your conscience. If ever you travel to Australia, please let me know because you are welcome to come to my family’s humble house in Sydney for a meal or if you prefer, we could find a good vegan restaurant!
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