Curious Christian

Reflections on culture, nature, and spirituality from a Christian perspective

I am often amazed when Christians find it so amazing that I converse so readily and easily with Pagans. I gather many assume conversations with Pagans are unavoidably adversarial and therefore scary and best left to “experts”. But this need not be the case. It helps though if you follow a few simple do’s and don’ts:

Do … focus on relationship

God is about relationship so relationship is where we should begin. Instead of charging in with an adversarial stance (or alternatively, a timid and fearful stance) in anticipation of an adversarial response, why not dare to anticipate the opposite? Funny enough I find that works 90% of the time. Pagans are people, just like us, and they appreciate a personable approach.

Do … listen in order to understand 

Have you every had one of those conversations where the other person was more interested in what they were about to say next than what you had to say? Not pleasant is it. Well, the tip here is, let’s not be that “other person”. Let’s actively listen. But less obviously, also be mindful that 80% of communication is nonverbal and the average Pagan is far more sensitive and attuned to symbolic communications than the average Evangelical. Don’t just listen to what they say; listen also to what they do.

Do … clarify what are the most important questions

Conversations can easily ramble on all over the place if we’re not careful, never getting to the meaty stuff. Try to go deeper. Find out what really divides each of you, not just what seems to. I’ve had many pagans say to me, “Oh I could never be a Christian because I love experiencing divinity in nature and expressing my spirituality through creative arts, incense burning and meditation.” I’ve said, “That’s curious, because I love those things too, as a Christian.” Going deeper however, I might find that they find polytheism more compelling and plausible than monotheism, or find Messianic particularity offensive. Then we’ve found some more substantial issues.

Do … focus on Jesus

Focus on Christ, not church; on Jesus, not Genesis; on the Messiah, not the wars of Moses and Joshua, on the Lord, not abortion. Or where we must focus on such things, make sure we link it back to the life and teaching, death and resurrection of Jesus in the course of the conversation. Christianity is centred on Christ, so lets keep Christ-centred as we communicate what it means to be a Christian.

Do … share your own story

Your story is what makes the good news real, plausible, and hopefully even attractive. Your story is what takes grounds the resurrection story in lived (and liveable) experience. Share yourself as you share God; share God as you share yourself.

Don’t … be so quick to demonize

There is nothing worse than confusing witchcraft with Satanism, or reciting urban legends about child sacrifices, or demonizing practices you understanding nothing about. It destroys conversations. If you do something so stupid, give up now. And while you’re at it maybe refresh yourself on that commandment about not bearing false witness. Yes, there are some things Pagans do which are incompatable with Christianity, but please, please, please, check between real things and imagined things before you launch into critiques. If you don’t know the difference: ask first.

Don’t … dump on women or gays or the environment

Pagans venerate nature goddesses as well as gods and tend to be strongly eco-feminist. You may not agree with their values in every respect, but a bit of tact and diplomacy goes a long way. And consider, even when you consider them unbalanced, who created the imbalance that necessitated this counterbalance? Yes, us! So maybe we can learn a thing or two from them here.

Don’t … expect others to find the Bible as authoritative as you

Not only should you not expect Pagans to take the bible as authoritative as you do, you should not expect them to take any scripture as authoritative as you do. Pagans tend to take experience as more authoritative than scripture and the Wiccan “Book of Shadows” so many have heard of is closer in function and form to Anglican prayer books and Catholic missals than the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

Don’t … expect every Pagan to be the same

Given the priority of experience over scripture (or should I say general revelation over special revelation) Paganism is consequently very diverse, even in terms of which goddesses and gods are worshipped. Not only are there many different traditions (such as Wicca, Druidism and various forms of Pagan Reconstructionism) but even within each tradition there is much variety. Don’t assume one Pagan speaks for all Pagans.

Don’t … be afraid to challenge, as long as you’re respectful

Through many years of experience I’ve found Pagans aren’t beyond being challenged, provided the challenge is respectful, and preferably within the context of relationship. The words of Peter are very pertinent here: “But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect.”

So I hope you find this helpful. Nothing is guaranteed. With such a history of bad blood between Pagans and Christians I can’t promise you won’t have a bad experience, that you won’t ever experience rejection, even following these tips. But I can say that most the time, if you approach Pagans with the right attitude, you’ll find them quite open to conversation about things of the Spirit.

Postscript: In this article I have focussed on “how” we might improve conversations with Pagans, from a Christian perspective. But in the conversation that followed, here and elsewhere, many have challenged “why” I would seek such a thing, having made huge assumptions about my intent, presuming it to be myopically focussed on evangelism (which I assure you it is not). If that describes you, before rushing to judgement I would ask you review John Morehead’s article on eleven reasons for dialogue, which closely reflects my own view, which you’ll find http://johnwmorehead.blogspot.com/2008/01/eleven-reasons-for-dialogue-with-people.html” target=”_self”>here and http://johnwmorehead.blogspot.com/2008/01/eleven-reasons-for-dialogue-with-people_21.html” target=”_self”>here. I would also ask, that where you feel critique is still necessary, to please keep it “constructive” rather than “destructive” and model that which you would ask of others.

164 responses to “Tips for conversations with Pagans”

  1. Matt Stone Avatar

    @Camille in Raleigh. If you read my blog in more depth you’ll see I’m a strident critic of Christendom and insist on the right of non-Christians to refuse Christianity.
    But don’t take my word for it, ask Jarred here. There is no pretense in anything I’m saying. I honestly acknowledge I would love you to take the way of Jesus more seriously. But I’ll defend to the death your right to reject it. Think I’m joking? I identify with a tradition that’s very serious about separation of church and state, very serious about freedom of religion. I’ve copped flack from fundamentalists on many occasions for extending the hand of friendship to people like yourself, and I’ve had friends stripped from their pastoral roles for doing much the same. Maybe that’s hard to believe but its the truth. I’d focus your attention back to the first tip I made above: dare to trust that an alternative to mutual distrust and conflict is possible.

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  2. Rev. Sonya Miller Avatar

    While conversing with Christians has never been my issue, nor has being friends with them. When someone tries to “be friend” me or “converse” with me to “witness” to me. I do have issues. My religion believes all paths lead to the same paths, and has never had issue with you worshiping Jesus right next to me worshiping Isis. And because of us finally getting our first amendment rights we are making this a reality forming our own churches.
    However, respect for our religion and our clergy would be nice. It is condescending, and offensive to act as if we do not KNOW your religion which is plastered and bandied about everywhere. Pagans CHOOSE our religion, we know yours. Ours, is a path of discovery. That is the appeal. So all answers will be different, and there is nothing set in stone.
    Thank you for encouraging conversations, and listening…now if only you encourage people to stop trying to convert us. Of course you like incense and candles and singing…We did it first!

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  3. Matt Stone Avatar

    I used to drum with a Pagan marriage celebrant. I had no problem acknowledging she had as much of a place in our society as the Christian equivalent. Oh, and I chose my religion too, at age 24. You presuppose much to suggest otherwise with either of those issues.

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  4. Matt Stone Avatar

    P.S. Just so it’s clear, when I’m advocating “dialogue” what I’m opposing is “monologue”. I’d suggest thinking twice before critiquing me and defining yourself against me on that one.

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  5. AutumnWytch Avatar
    AutumnWytch

    Here’s a plain and simple way to talk to Pagans: How about just respecting a person’s Pagan beliefs and stop trying to convert them. That would be a monumental step in the right direction. Personal spirituality is just that: personal.
    I couldn’t care less about your personal relationship with Jesus, and I have no intention of sharing my personal relationship with my deities.
    Christians love to bleat about how their spiritual beliefs are not respected, but their complete lack of self-awareness is stunning. They whine about being disrespected, when they run around slip-shod, disrespecting everyone and every belief that doesn’t agree with their twisted worldview.
    It’s impossible to have an open dialogue with Christians, because they approach it from the viewpoint that they are divinely right and everyone else is demonically wrong. Period.

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  6. harmonyfb Avatar
    harmonyfb

    Matt said: “I’d invite to have an open mind and consider the possibility that more harmonious relations between Christians and Pagans are possible.”
    Matt, I’m in a 24-year interfaith marriage with a Christian, and count among my friends several Christian ministers (Presbyterian, Lutheran, Episcopal). I don’t have a problem with harmonious Christian-Pagan relations. I’ve worked on interfaith projects in the past, and would welcome the opportunity to do so in the future.
    But I must say that your list – whether you intended it or not – comes across as a list of ways to sneakily convert Pagans. And the reason it does is that I’ve encountered such lists before in that very context. In fact, one Baptist acquaintance actually asked me how her women’s group should best approach Pagans (with a view to conversion(!) And my remark about deceptive friendships above came from more than one personal experience.
    The fact that you mentioned ‘rejection’ in the latter paragraphs indicated to me that your list was about conversion, not dialogue. If it was unintended, then I apologize for my assumptions…but it certainly reads that way to me.
    Can Christians and Pagans enjoy friendship and true dialogue? Well, of course. I enjoy friendship, dialogue, and love with various Christians, even though we do not share the same faith. The key is to accord everyone the same measure of respect and human dignity, and to approach everyone as equals, not as targets.
    Matt said: “I have not hidden that I think Jesus has something powerful to offer. But I am absolutely serious that, even should you reject that”
    I should hope that you think the former, since you’re worshiping him. I certainly wouldn’t worship a deity I thought unworthy, and I assume you wouldn’t either. I also believe my Gods (Aphrodite, Hermes, and Herne) have something powerful to offer. The difference is that I don’t first think of how *you* (or anyone else) should worship them when I engage in friendly interfaith dialogue.

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  7. Matt Stone Avatar

    AutumnWytch, that’s a remarkably absolutist statement for someone critiquing absolutism. Yet, would I be entirely off base to suggest that, by leaving commentary here, that deep down you do what to be heard and understood by Christians? What I’m hearing on the surface here is a lot of anger, but I’m sensing deeper down that there’s lonliness, sadness. Have you had a Christian close to you reject you? If so, I am willing to hear it.
    In fact, I would extend that invite to the rest of you too. What I’d actually like to hear more of is your stories. I can see a lot of you are hurting. But I can’t do much with vague diatribes based on rough stereotypes. What I’d like to hear is stuff that’s more CONCRETE. Who hurt you? How did they hurt you? If you could permit yourself to dream of reconciliation, what would it look like?

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  8. inspiraven Avatar

    “I am often amazed when Evangelicals find it so amazing that I converse so readily and easily with Pagans. I gather many assume conversations with Pagans are unavoidably adversarial and therefore scary and best left to “experts. But this need not be the case. It helps though if you follow a few simple do’s and don’ts”
    Thank you for your post and your attempt to share a kind of respect for Pagans. It goes a lot further than many who share your faith. However, I submit to you that teaching folks who carry the fundamental assumption that Pagans are “other” and therefore scary, how to, dare I say it, FAKE respect might not be in the best interests of anyone involved.
    This article may be a far cry from the “burn the witch” mentality that is so easily found among Christians but it is still operating from an assumption of “other”.
    You make some great points about respecting us but ultimately one is left wondering, is your purpose to sooth the irrational fears of your fellow faith members, or to teach how to convert those of us on a different path?
    I am amazed at the ability of so many people to believe they hold the one true way. As much as I’m for humans interacting in a respectful way towards each other, I think that those persons who “amaze” you in the first paragraph, need more basic training in respectful human interaction before they go on to interact with the frightening “other”.
    I agree with many of the comments, and want to stress the conversion/proselytizing factor, if present will ALWAYS shut down the conversation, and if hidden under fake respect, will cause more harm than good.
    That being said, spiritual truth seekers of all paths have much in common and can and do find strong friendships.

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  9. harmonyfb Avatar
    harmonyfb

    Matt, I can’t speak for the others here, but I had pretty positive experiences of Christianity growing up in the South. But it was never really my religion, because the Antlered God of the forest called to me when I was a young girl.
    Over the years, I’ve met various jerks who professed Christianity and used it to justify their particular hatred du jour. Identity Christians who hate everyone who isn’t a WASP, Evangelical Christians who hate those who are gay, Dominionists who hate everything that isn’t just like them. I don’t particularly want to be “reconciled” with such individuals, unless they come to a sudden illumination of their shortcomings (which has happened – a few years back I ran into a formerly-racist acquaintance from college who had such a run-in with self-knowledge.) But I don’t assume that their religion is to blame (per se); I assume that their personality defects led them to seek out a version of religion which allowed them to indulge their hatred.

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  10. Khryseis_Astra Avatar

    “Do… accept that other faiths are valid.”
    Another polytheist who seconds this sentiment. Despite opinions to the contrary, Christians have just as much “proof” of the existence of their deity as a believer in any one of the other thousands of gods out there: absolutely none! None of us can “prove” our gods exist, that one religion is any “truer” than any other, that one god is “more powerful” than any other, etc. All of us have only our own intuition and personal spiritual experiences to go by.
    From a polytheist’s perspective, either all of our spiritual experiences are equally valid, and thus all these gods must exist, or the only other logical option is that everyone – Christian and Pagan alike – is deluding themselves equally.
    Any argument you could make to attempt to “disprove” any of our own gods can apply equally to your own deity, and there’s really nothing you can say about your experience of deity that a Pagan could not also say of their gods, yet so many Christians will continue to insist that only their god is “real” and all others are somehow “false.” You can’t dismiss others spiritual experiences using the same criteria you use to support your own.

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  11. Matt Stone Avatar

    Harmonyfb, thanks for sharing more about your context, it helps me to address your concerns more concretely. In writing this article I was directing it specifically at Christians, but not directing it to any “specific” type of Christian-Pagan engagement. Which is to say, I think there’s things here that should apply for many types of engagement.
    Some Christians will be out for conversion, nothing more or less. Maybe I should have included a tip up front to think far more broadly than that, but, blogging being the medium it is, I’m okay with that coming out on the subsequent dialogue. I never thought of this as a complete list anyway and I’m quite okay with it being refined over time within an open, dialogical context. I’m just appealing to Pagans who want to critique to try and critique constructively and not assume I’m the enemy.
    Which brings me to other sorts of engagements. I am also aware of other Christians who would assume the Pagans they encounter are beyond conversion and carrying a spiritual contagion of the highest order. These folk aren’t interested in evangelism at all. They’re interested in spiritual warfare and self protection. They’re very fearful to be honest. These folk I also want to encourage to engage to lighten up. Now please understand here, and this is an important point, if I come across as too liberal they would not give me the time of day at all. If I’m to get through to them in any way I need to maximise my conservative credentials. So bear in mind that me maximising my conservative credentials is not necessarily against your interests, particularly in terms of social recognition and personal reconciliation and all that.
    Which brings me to liberal Christians. These guys can flip to the other extreme, emphasizing the commonalities between Pagans and Christians and ignoring the differences to such an extent that real differences never get grappled with or worked through. If we want to talk about pretence, pretence is where we cover our eyes to sources of contention, like hell, and convince ourselves that ignoring it will make it go away. It won’t, it was on the lips of Christ, and Christ is central to Christianity, so sooner or later it’s going to come up in conversation. Now the conversation may be unavoidable, but the disrespect and harshness that often accompanies it from both sides need not be. There are more constructive ways to approach it. And I think we need to work towards it if Pagans and Christians (all Christians and not just the left-most fringes of Christianity) are to live more harmoniously together.
    Which brings me to myself. Though I am trying to engage with all these streams of Christianity, and more, I consider myself a different stream altogether. Neither Reformed, nor Pentecostal, nor Liberal, but Anabaptist. This is a tradition that emphasizes discipleship and peacemaking. Now discipleship is understood as including disciple making, this is true, and I would encourage people to consider discipleship were they are open to it. But discipleship extends way beyond it, with particular emphasis on just “being” good news to others. Thus, building peace, being a core concern of my tradition, is a core concern for me here whatever else may happen witnessing wise. Unlike an evangelical, what I count as successful engagement is not measured in purely evangelistic terms. Moreover, where evangelism is practiced, it’s in a spirit of non-coercion and non-pressuring that precludes a lot of what happens in the Evangelical mainstream. That’s something you’re just going to have to trust me on.

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  12. Matt Stone Avatar

    @inspiraven. I don’t think respect can be faked effectively and I wouldn’t encourage faking it even if it could be. Why don’t you elaborate on what you think real respect would look like?

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  13. AK Avatar
    AK

    Unlike others, I am not going to dissect it because my brothers and sisters already have. But you made it sound like us Pagans are a weird alien that have no clue about the world around them. We’re normal people; eating, sleeping, playing. Instead of a “guidelist” on how to “talk to us”, just talk to us! 9 times out of 10, we’re just the girl/boy next door. If you want to talk religion, ask first. Don’t go into a story of how Christianity has made your life better. It’s insulting, no matter what your religion is!

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  14. Matt Stone Avatar

    Khryseis_Astra, I’m perfectly open to the possibility that what you call gods and goddesses are genuinely experienced and not imagined. I’m not sure we label things in the same way though. What we call “God” transcends sun and moon, earth and sky. What we call God functions more like karma and weird in some systems. Conversely, what Pagans call gods and goddesses sound more like what we call “the powers” to my ears. In short, they seem to serve different functions between our different worldviews. Hard to articulate though.

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  15. Matt Stone Avatar

    AK, you misunderstand, it’s the Christians I’m addressing whom I see as disconnected from the world around them. They need guidelists like this to help overcome fear of the unknown.

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  16. travis Avatar
    travis

    this is to matt stone, this is what upsets me the most, so many christians want to talk to me and other pagans to try to convert us. they make it there point in the talking. what happened to us just talking about the weather and the kids, the job. and the slideshow that you have oin this blog is not of everyday pagans doing everyday things, the truth is you could be next to one and never know it, we are not nothing like what you pretray us to be like everyday. what you betray is only during rituals (worship) and then not everyone gets nude or that elaberate, like i, i can do it and the guy next me wont even know i am doing anything at all. and to also talk to us like we dont know the bible is wrong, most of us do know it was christian or something and decided not to anymore for our own reasons. i my self was christian and ordained minister also….but i have opted out for my personal reasons, and found my home with paganism.

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  17. komfykat@sbcglobal.net Avatar
    komfykat@sbcglobal.net

    this reads more like, ” how to cope with life after high school” sorry but this is truly stupid.

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  18. AutumnWytch Avatar
    AutumnWytch

    @Matt Stone: Thanks for the attempt at psychoanalysis, but I’m actually quite content and happy in my life, despite the fact that this article got under my skin.
    My only point in posting here, the link to which I followed from the Wild Hunt’s blog, was to read what sort of Pagan-saving clap-trap was being offered this time around, and quite frankly, to say that Pagans don’t need to be converted by Christians – I don’t know why you can’t get that through your head, because we all know that’s your ultimate goal, lest you suffer the hell fires yourself.
    At best, it’s disingenuous, at worst, it’s downright insulting, to infer that Pagans are “less than” or “misguided” or unable to live our own lives responsibly and freely without the “loving guidance” of Christ and his army of Christians. But you are right, I am ticked at being treated like an inferior to Christians, an attitude which condescending blog posts like this perpetuate.
    I know you all think you’ve got the corner on the salvation market, but the fact of the matter is — if you were really and truly being honest with yourself — you have no more proof of anything than anyone else does, and if you want to talk in terms of absolutist, well, that’s your territory, which we’ve witnessed over the centuries – Jesus’ way or the highway.
    Most of the rest of us accept that we don’t know what lies beyond this life, and are willing to accept that our path is simply that: ours, and that the paths of others are no less valid than our own. But, facts are facts, it’s usually you guys who live in the absolute realm of black and white, when in actuality, the world is made up of gray.

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  19. Mojavi Avatar
    Mojavi

    I completely agree with your statement. As a pagan, I love theological discussions and find my self more interested in how other faiths and paths work when the point of the conversation was just to make friends.
    When the elite-ism is not in play is when a hearty and more understanding dialogue can take place. In other words, don’t just talk a good game but to live by what one preaches.

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  20. Souris Avatar
    Souris

    In my experience “I’ll pray for you.” is most often delivered with a facial expression that strongly suggests an unsaid “…to fall off a cliff.”

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  21. T Avatar
    T

    Regarding point 1,
    To clarify, I was not asking if the point of this post specifically was to convert Pagans. I was asking if you, as a Christian, seek to convert Pagans to Christianity? Pretty simple question. Do you, or don’t you?

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  22. Jarred Avatar

    “At best, it’s disingenuous, at worst, it’s downright insulting, to infer that Pagans are “less than” or “misguided” or unable to live our own lives responsibly and freely without the “loving guidance” of Christ and his army of Christians.”
    Thing is, I don’t see anywhere in this post where Matt even came close to making any of those statements. Care to point out specific statements that said or even implied any such thing?

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  23. inspiraven Avatar

    Mr. Stone,
    Thank you for your reply and your question.
    “Pagans are people, just like us, and they appreciate a personable approach.”
    First, I think that people who need to be told that Pagans are, in fact people, are not quite ready to engage respectfully with said group.
    As I understand it, this is your audience. Where as I applaud your reaching out to bridge the gap, I also feel more planks are needed to cross the river. Good first step. Explaining that the scary OTHER behind the curtain of fear may not be so bad after all.
    Good first plank, but perhaps your intended audience needs more time to grasp the wisdom of this point before they go rushing into, engaging with said scary “OTHER”.
    Second, I do not believe one can engage respecfully, equally or with much value, when one is coming from a “one true way” belief, and looking down on those who don’t share their belief.
    I assume your blog is intended for adults. If these adults are not yet familiar with the concept of other views being equally valid, or worse, familiar with, but out right reject the concept, then those people are not yet ready to graduate into respectful interactions with those of other paths.
    Hecate, an earlier commentor posted a blog post responding to this article. I suggest reading it for a deeper understanding of how condescending and UNrespecful one could take this whole how to talk to Pagans thing.
    True respect comes from the wisdom of time integrating this concept. Without this integrated wisdom, the “tips” are of no value.
    Thanks for keeping the dialog open

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  24. sonja Avatar

    Matt, I think (or I hope) you know how very much I deeply respect you and your writing. I am very often in agreement with you. But I can’t really say that this time.
    When I read this post, I first thought it was satire … and maybe it is? But if it isn’t, I have to agree with the commenters who have said it feels like a recipe for stealth conversion and who are offended by it. I think I understand that you are trying to bridge some very troubled waters and in so doing are using words that have stirred up some feelings of discomfort.
    Here’s my problem though. Even though I align my faith primarily with evangelicalism, I can’t find anywhere in the Bible where Jesus tells us to make relationships with people so we can “save” them. No, He doesn’t do that. Our first responsibility is love people regardless of where they are physically and metaphysically. We are to allow the Holy Spirit to do the job of “saving” them if She deems it necessary. Someone who is much smarter than I am uses “Live your faith. Share your life,” as his blog tagline and that seems to be a good way to be.
    I have friends who are all over the spiritual map … literally. Some are Pagans, some are atheists, some agnostic, etc. Sometimes we talk about faith issues. Sometimes we talk about the price of tea in China, or what our kids are doing, or how our parents are aging, or … whatever. Making a good case for Jesus isn’t going to change them. Loving them because Jesus loves me … might find a way to mold them … IF that is to be my role. IF. But their friendship and loving them is my primary concern.

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  25. Moe Avatar

    Hecate in her blog response had some good points.
    While I as a Pagan would love to actually see some honest bridges of dialogue and actual understanding between Christians and Pagans, there are certain problems that need to be dealt with first. Among them is the EARNED distrust Pagans have for Christians and your actual motives for supposedly wanting to talk with us.
    I personally over the 30 years of being Pagan experienced the Christians being friends only to convert me act and its variants. There is only so much one can stand about our deities being blasphemed and the ending condescending curse of ” I’ll pray for you” that one can stand.
    For me it boils down to I’ll hear what you say to a certain point but I will NEVER trust you.

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  26. Matt Stone Avatar

    Sonja, I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said there. I’m just wondering why you’re presuming I don’t? I’ve said that we Christians should be quick to listen (point 2) and slow to demonize (point 6). But sadly I’m seeing a lot of people here unwilling to reciprocate on precisely those two points. Some are saying the list is silly, but their behaviour is suggesting to me that, far from being unnecessary, there’s many points here that Pagans could learn from too. Projection is deadly in dialogue, yet many here seem hell bent on project, all the while cry “don’t project on me”, launching accusations while asking few questions. In the face of that I stand by the list.
    I want to ask, how many are actually interested in reconciliation between Christians and Pagans? The impression I’m getting is that some are, but many are just using this as an excuse to offload baggage. I understand this is part of the dynamic, but I would appeal to those more open to reconciliation to consider how we get there from both sides. Thinking I should give up my commitment to Jesus as Christ as a prerequisite to dialogue is as absurd as me suggesting Pagans give up polytheism as a prerequisite. They’re too core to each of our respective paths. We need to get beyond such futile notions if we’re genuinely interested in building bridges. I think we need to start by taking more time to share stories and learn more about each other before we start thinking we have a handle on each other. That involves Christians in the conversation too.

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  27. Dana Corby Avatar
    Dana Corby

    A Book of Shadows is more like a cumulative working journal than a book of common prayer. And believe me — none of these ploys you list will work with the vast majority of us, for the simple reason that you have nothing we want. We do not believe there’s anything to be ‘saved’ from.

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  28. Camille in Raleigh Avatar
    Camille in Raleigh

    Random? Hardly. I used to be an Evangelical, and I know the Bible better than most Evangelicals do–Yahweh is, according to everything in that book, a jealous, possessive, and petty brat who gets and keeps followers through threats and intimidation. If you let him tell you what to do, then he gleefully ignores anything bad that you’ve done and “loves” you–but woe betide you if you reject him!
    Those are behaviours that would get any mortal man thrown in jail for domestic violence while everyone tells the woman “you need to take the kids and run screaming”, and it’s why–though I do believe that Yahweh exists, I refuse to have anything to do with him anymore and am quite happy (and far more moral, according to Christian standards) following the gods of my ancestors.
    That is my opinion–and that’s why I tell Christians “I’m not interested, thank you” and walk away whenever I get one trying to “understand” my belief system (Asatru)…because I know that the topic will turn to conversion, and I want no truck with that.

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  29. Sha Avatar
    Sha

    Talk to me because you want to talk to me, not because you want me to “see the light and accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior” and be respectful and I guarantee it will be a positive experience. But if you’re talking to me because you want to make another convert, you’re wasting your time and not being respectful of me.
    I think sometimes there’s an assumption that the only reason someone would be something other than Christian is because they haven’t been exposed to Christianity, or they don’t know what it’s really about, but it’s been my experience that the vast majority of the time that is not the case.
    I’m not Christian because I *do* know what it’s about, and it just isn’t for me. That doesn’t mean that I take issue with those for whom it is a good match, it just means that it doesn’t mesh with my beliefs and values. No amount of proselytizing will change that.
    But if you want to talk to me because you’re interested in forming a friendship with me, or even just because you think it would be interesting to have a theological discussion with someone who’s beliefs differ from yours, just be respectful and it will be a pleasant conversation.
    If there’s a hidden agenda, though, and you start trying to save my wretched soul or bring me into the light of God, I will kindly and respectfully send you on your way.

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  30. Camille in Raleigh Avatar
    Camille in Raleigh

    Matt, with as much respect as I can muster:
    I have been burned in far too many encounters with “accepting” Christians to trust anything you say.

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  31. Camille in Raleigh Avatar
    Camille in Raleigh

    “I want to ask, how many are actually interested in reconciliation between Christians and Pagans?”
    There is a scene from the TV show “Babylon 5” that sums up my thoughts on this.
    [on a lift]
    G’Kar stares at Vir intently, and Vir says to him, “I’m sorry. I wish… there was something that I could do. I tried telling them, but they wouldn’t listen. They never listen… I’m sorry.” The elevator door opens and G’Kar walks out.
    Before he vanishes, though, G’Kar turns to Vir. He slices his hand, letting the blood drip on the floor. “Dead… dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead… How do you apologize to them?”
    “I can’t,” Vir admits.
    “Then I cannot forgive,” G’Kar tells him, and walks away.
    I think that rather than telling us Pagans that we need to be more accepting of Christians, perhaps it would be better for you Christians to understand WHY more than a few Pagans are so adamant about wanting nothing to do with that belief system, and not wanting to engage in any kind of “conversation”.

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  32. Jarred Avatar

    Camille: You’re wrong. Matt doesn’t do that.
    But hey, maybe it’s okay to tar a group of people with the same brush as long as it’s a group WE don’t care for? Shall the oppressed someday take their turn at being the oppressor?

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  33. Paosirdjhutmosu.wordpress.com Avatar

    Yes! This!
    Even for those of us who don’t consider “I’ll pray for you” as a coercive curse/spell, (I can see how it could be, but I’m not worried about bad Christian juju) it also comes off as condescending,insulting, and deeply offensive.
    I have had my Catholic mother say this too many times to me. Worse are her hopes for me being like Saint Augustine. It does not improve my relationship with her, nor does it improve my estimation of her religion.

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  34. The_L Avatar
    The_L

    I don’t think Matt himself is going to try to convert us, no. His readers are a different story. You cannot honestly expect us to believe that NOBODY who reads this article is planning to use these tips in an ill-advised conversion attempt. When I was still Christian, I had people trying to “save” me from the “wrong” denomination! My brother had a run-in with the CCC, and he’s Catholic. Some people really do care about nothing but getting people in their particular church, and there should be caveats mentioned.

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  35. The_L Avatar
    The_L

    I agree. But some of your readers are likely to misinterpret your article as a “how to convert them” guide, and…90% of conversion attempts I’ve encountered, both in person and on the Internet, have been of the “you’re going to hell unless you join MY church and follow MY exact view of what Christian morals are” variety. This sort of thinking cannot be sustained, or it will poison the morals of Christian youth (“I may have cheated on my test, but I’m still better than you because YOU’RE going to hell!”) and make relations between Christians and non-Christians worse and worse. We all need to do something about these people.

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  36. The_L Avatar
    The_L

    My personal experiences? I was raised Catholic in rural Alabama, and went to a now-defunct private school run out of the local Church of God. Until I was in high school, I didn’t knowingly encounter any non-Christians. (I later learned that a second cousin of mine followed a Native-based Path, but no one wants to discuss it and she’s estranged from the family, so I’m sketchy on the details). In middle school, my religious education went from Bible stories and popular hymns to Warnke and the demonization of other religions. I spent my middle-school years living in constant fear of damnation because I liked reading Bulfinch and my phone # at the time had three 6’s in a row. (And sometimes i didnt pray the rosary, or forgot and ate meat on Lenten Fridays…Once I developed the complex, both aspects of my Christian upbringing started feeding it.)
    My high school years were spent at an urban fine-arts school, and you can just imagine the culture shock! After I learned that my atheist, Hindu, Muslim, and gay classmates weren’t what I’d been led to believe, I became less and less inclined to remain Catholic.
    In college, I met an Asatruar through a club we were both members of, and we became friends. Through that friendship, I had encounters with other Pagans of various Paths, and when I started reading about Wicca, something “clicked.” I later experienced the Goddess directly, and this further cemented my decision to practice Wicca.
    My parents, while they don’t think Wiccans are hellbound, per se…have some very odd ideas about what it is. I’ve never dared broach the subject with my father, and my mother thinks I’m “going through a phase” and assumes that I will automatically return to Christianity in a few years. My father has made disparaging comments about Wicca that appear to indicate that he thinks it is a Harry Potter LARP or something of that nature, and he’s unbearably stubborn. Talking to him about my religion would be as productive as talking to a rock.

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  37. Jarred Avatar

    The_L: You’re quite right. Some of Matt’s readers (especially since this post seems to be getting a lot of attention) might abuse what he wrote here to do something he didn’t intend to do, promote, or endorse. If and when it happens, that would be unfortunate.
    But then again, how culpable is Matt for what some of his readers do? Human beings have a long history of taking some well-meaning statement and twisting and abusing it. Take the “all acts of love and pleasure” line from The Charge of the Goddess as an example. I’ve personally seen people use that as justification and rationalization for being sexually manipulative and committing other acts that Just Aren’t Cool. I don’t think Doreen Valiente is at fault for their behavior though. (And yes, I’ve actually had to defend that line against people within the Pagan community who think it’s “more trouble than it’s worth.”)
    Now, having said that, there are probably some things Matt can do to help stave off some of those misinterpretations and make it clear that he doesn’t endorse stealth-conversion. I also suspect he’s grateful to people like yourself who have made suggestions on how he can do that more effectively.

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  38. Sha Avatar
    Sha

    But see, sections like:
    Do … clarify what are the most important questions
    Do … focus on Jesus
    Do … share your own story
    And the way the advice is worded within these sections (and some specific lines from other sections as well) that make this feel like a “how to convert your pagan neighbor” guide

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  39. Meical abAwen Avatar
    Meical abAwen

    Gosh, somehow Hecate’s link was lost. Here it is again: http://hecatedemetersdatter.blogspot.com/2011/04/me-in-bad-mood.html

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  40. Meical abAwen Avatar
    Meical abAwen

    Hi Ian
    Polytheism simply isn’t incompatible with Christianity. It IS incompatible with the warped political version of Christianity that many people follow, the that insists there is only one god, he’s male, has a white beard and is strikingly caucasian.
    Let me rephrase what I said earlier, as I did not do a very good job of communicating. I have never seen any activity of my fellow pagans in the worship of the divine that is incompatible with Christianity.
    That’s not just wordsmithing, either. Those Christians who insist on perpetuating the lies told by political religious figures over the last 18 centuries or so are ignorant of their faith.
    I repeat, I have never seen any activity of my fellow pagans in the worship of the divine that is incompatible with Christianity.

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  41. Sha Avatar
    Sha

    Isn’t there a commandment against the worship of other Gods?

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  42. Jarred Avatar

    I’m guessing Hecate linked to it an a tag. HTML isn’t accepted in comments here. (I have no idea why Matt has it set up like that.) Thanks for reposting the URL, though. That does go through.

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  43. Meical abAwen Avatar
    Meical abAwen

    By the way, Matt. Why does the video at the start that does not show the Average pagan? It DOES show an amazing number of stereotypes, many of whom are likely to enforce negative attitudes among Christians.
    How about if I were to lead off an article on how to to talk to Christians with a link like this? http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/04/WBC_20051202_sacco-topeka5.jpg
    Your video was neither accurate, nor respectful. I think that is why so many of us Pagans automatically disbelieve anything you Christians say; the respect for our faith is simply not there. Nor can it be, given everyday Christian beliefs.

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  44. Jarred Avatar

    Okay. I can see where you might get that feeling based on that. But in this case, your feelings are an inaccurate perception of the other person’s actual intent.

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  45. Jarred Avatar

    I see a wide variety of images in the slideshow, including at least two images of a pair of people (presumably a a couple in each instance) smiling and showing affection to one another.

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  46. Jarred Avatar

    Granted, I might be more inclined to cut Matt some slack since I’m more familiar with his interest in the intersection between art and religion, and have seen him post examples of “Zombie Jesus” and “Vampire Jesus” artwork to this blog and discuss it in ways that don’t amount to outrage over alleged blasphemy.

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  47. Camille in Raleigh Avatar
    Camille in Raleigh

    Jarred, how nice of you to ignore everything I have said and the very valid concerns that I have raised, and just go right to being patronizing.
    It is in the same vein that I say to you:
    May Odin bless you.

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  48. Jarred Avatar

    Camille:
    I feel you have gone beyond raising concerns. You blaming Matt for things that others have done to you, not what he himself has done for you. I feel you are taking out your bad feelings on someone who has done nothing to cause them.
    Yes, you’ve had bad experiences. I have never denied that. I’m simply pointing out that treating Matt like crap and taking your bad experiences out on him isn’t right.
    As for Odin blessing me, thank you. He’s been blessing me since making his presence known in my life back in the first half of the last decade.

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  49. helen Avatar
    helen

    For all of you that have had problems with church/ Christians – I’m sorry you’ve had problems.
    I’m a Christian (for want of a better term) and have also been on the receiving end of other Christians trying to “convert me” because I have problems with the idea of hell and don’t have a Pavlovian reflex to evangelise everyone I meet…
    I know very little about Paganism/ Wicca etc but I love talking “God-stuff” with anyone who is happy to – not because I think I’m right, just because I like exploring Godstuff.

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  50. Camille in Raleigh Avatar
    Camille in Raleigh

    “You blaming Matt for things that others have done to you, not what he himself has done for you.”
    Show me where I have blamed him for anything? Methinks you are projecting, because I refuse to trust (and therefore call into question) somebody that you consider a friend.
    Perhaps you should reexamine your point of view, if the only way that you can respond to those who question and refuse to take your friend at face value is to become a patronizing jerk.
    May Odin bless you–preferably right between the eyes.

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