Curious Christian

Reflections on culture, nature, and spirituality from a Christian perspective

Tips for conversations with Pagans

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Matt Stone

2011-05-03

I am often amazed when Christians find it so amazing that I converse so readily and easily with Pagans. I gather many assume conversations with Pagans are unavoidably adversarial and therefore scary and best left to “experts”. But this need not be the case. It helps though if you follow a few simple do’s and don’ts:

Do … focus on relationship

God is about relationship so relationship is where we should begin. Instead of charging in with an adversarial stance (or alternatively, a timid and fearful stance) in anticipation of an adversarial response, why not dare to anticipate the opposite? Funny enough I find that works 90% of the time. Pagans are people, just like us, and they appreciate a personable approach.

Do … listen in order to understand

Have you every had one of those conversations where the other person was more interested in what they were about to say next than what you had to say? Not pleasant is it. Well, the tip here is, let’s not be that “other person”. Let’s actively listen. But less obviously, also be mindful that 80% of communication is nonverbal and the average Pagan is far more sensitive and attuned to symbolic communications than the average Evangelical. Don’t just listen to what they say; listen also to what they do.

Do … clarify what are the most important questions

Conversations can easily ramble on all over the place if we’re not careful, never getting to the meaty stuff. Try to go deeper. Find out what really divides each of you, not just what seems to. I’ve had many pagans say to me, “Oh I could never be a Christian because I love experiencing divinity in nature and expressing my spirituality through creative arts, incense burning and meditation.” I’ve said, “That’s curious, because I love those things too, as a Christian.” Going deeper however, I might find that they find polytheism more compelling and plausible than monotheism, or find Messianic particularity offensive. Then we’ve found some more substantial issues.

Do … focus on Jesus

Focus on Christ, not church; on Jesus, not Genesis; on the Messiah, not the wars of Moses and Joshua, on the Lord, not abortion. Or where we must focus on such things, make sure we link it back to the life and teaching, death and resurrection of Jesus in the course of the conversation. Christianity is centred on Christ, so lets keep Christ-centred as we communicate what it means to be a Christian.

Do … share your own story

Your story is what makes the good news real, plausible, and hopefully even attractive. Your story is what takes grounds the resurrection story in lived (and liveable) experience. Share yourself as you share God; share God as you share yourself.

Don’t … be so quick to demonize

There is nothing worse than confusing witchcraft with Satanism, or reciting urban legends about child sacrifices, or demonizing practices you understanding nothing about. It destroys conversations. If you do something so stupid, give up now. And while you’re at it maybe refresh yourself on that commandment about not bearing false witness. Yes, there are some things Pagans do which are incompatable with Christianity, but please, please, please, check between real things and imagined things before you launch into critiques. If you don’t know the difference: ask first.

Don’t … dump on women or gays or the environment

Pagans venerate nature goddesses as well as gods and tend to be strongly eco-feminist. You may not agree with their values in every respect, but a bit of tact and diplomacy goes a long way. And consider, even when you consider them unbalanced, who created the imbalance that necessitated this counterbalance? Yes, us! So maybe we can learn a thing or two from them here.

Don’t … expect others to find the Bible as authoritative as you

Not only should you not expect Pagans to take the bible as authoritative as you do, you should not expect them to take any scripture as authoritative as you do. Pagans tend to take experience as more authoritative than scripture and the Wiccan “Book of Shadows” so many have heard of is closer in function and form to Anglican prayer books and Catholic missals than the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

Don’t … expect every Pagan to be the same

Given the priority of experience over scripture (or should I say general revelation over special revelation) Paganism is consequently very diverse, even in terms of which goddesses and gods are worshipped. Not only are there many different traditions (such as Wicca, Druidism and various forms of Pagan Reconstructionism) but even within each tradition there is much variety. Don’t assume one Pagan speaks for all Pagans.

Don’t … be afraid to challenge, as long as you’re respectful

Through many years of experience I’ve found Pagans aren’t beyond being challenged, provided the challenge is respectful, and preferably within the context of relationship. The words of Peter are very pertinent here: “But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect.”

So I hope you find this helpful. Nothing is guaranteed. With such a history of bad blood between Pagans and Christians I can’t promise you won’t have a bad experience, that you won’t ever experience rejection, even following these tips. But I can say that most the time, if you approach Pagans with the right attitude, you’ll find them quite open to conversation about things of the Spirit.

Postscript: In this article I have focussed on “how” we might improve conversations with Pagans, from a Christian perspective. But in the conversation that followed, here and elsewhere, many have challenged “why” I would seek such a thing, having made huge assumptions about my intent, presuming it to be myopically focussed on evangelism (which I assure you it is not). If that describes you, before rushing to judgement I would ask you review John Morehead’s article on eleven reasons for dialogue, which closely reflects my own view, which you’ll find http://johnwmorehead.blogspot.com/2008/01/eleven-reasons-for-dialogue-with-people.html” target=”_self”>here and http://johnwmorehead.blogspot.com/2008/01/eleven-reasons-for-dialogue-with-people_21.html” target=”_self”>here. I would also ask, that where you feel critique is still necessary, to please keep it “constructive” rather than “destructive” and model that which you would ask of others.

Tags Pagan

164 responses to “Tips for conversations with Pagans”

Kat Jaklitsch

2011-04-16

Thankypu for this post. As a former pagan (a fact most of my Christian friends don’t even know), the amount of misunderstanding and judgement Christians have toward pagans has always bothered me….and for that reason, many pagans have also retaliated with an equal judgementalness against Christians (many pagans are former Christians who have also been deeply hurt by the church, often for just asking questions that made many pastors uncomfortable).
The Judgemental attitude on both sides needs to stop.
I became a Christian because someone got over their fears and developed a real and deep friendship with me, because they loved me like Christ loves his sheep, and that person never gave up on me. That was eight years ago. Healing hurts just won’t happen until we decide its ok to learn from one another and just BE Christ to others before telling our pagan friends about hell. BEING CHRIST to others works more.

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Jarred

2011-04-16

Good suggestions, Matt. A few things I’d like to add….
On the topic of relationship: Please remember that Pagans are multi-dimensional people. They have lives, troubles, families, hopes, dreams, career goals, and everything else you have too. As a Pagan (and as a Christian, I’m sure you feel the same way), I’m far more willing to “talk religion” with someone who takes an interest in other aspects of my life, too.
On clarifying the important issues: Don’t assume your use the same words in the same ways or to mean the same exact things. For example, if you hear me talk about my gods and imagine an “omni omni omni” deity like you envision your god to be, then we’ve already hit a major communication barrier. My gods are more like the loa of voodoo.
On the Bible: Also, don’t assume that the Pagan you’re talking to isn’t familiar with the Bible. I’ve all but shamed some of my Christian friends by being able to quote from their Holy book more easily than they do.
On every Pagan not being the same: So true, and it should be applied to every type of Pagan. Not even all Wiccans are the same. To give an extreme example, the differences between an eclectic who bases her practices on what she’s read out of several books and an initiate of Central Valley Wicca can be hard to see at first, but are vast when you start to see them. Unfortunately, not even most Pagans see this, so beware of trusting any claims about what all Pagans or Wiccans believe or do, even if you hear them from a Pagan or Wiccan.
As for something that’s not on your list: Be extremely careful about talking about “Real Christians” or what “Christianity REALLY means.” I understand that you might strongly disagree with the version of Christianity that a Pagan has been exposed to, and you might certainly find that what those other Christians said or did to that Pagan was awful and completely out of line with what you believe Christianity teaches. It’s okay to say that. It’s okay to say you believe differently. In fact, it’s a good thing to show where your understanding of Christianity differs. But when you start talking about how your Christianity is “real” and the Christianity that the Pagan was exposed to is “fake,” you’re making an authoritative claim that the Pagan is likely to doubt you’re in a position to doubt. On top of that, it can come across as dismissive towards the Pagans very real — and often painful — experiences.
There’s probably more I could say, but I think this is good for a start.

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Matt Stone

2011-04-16

Thanks for the feedback Jarred, especially the last point. That can be a hard one for us sometimes, especially when Trinity denying traditions like Jehovah’s Witness and Mormonism come into the picture. But I admit, sometimes Christians been too quick to disown the darker sides of Christian history, like the crusades, witch burnings and heretic hunts. These violent acts do not reflect what Jesus would do IMO, but obviously some Christians have thought otherwise. By the same token, one could say confusing Mormons and Christians is not unlike confusing Wiccans and Heathens. I suspect one issue to explore deeper here is the “truth” seeking nature of Christianity and how that plays into “real” and “fake” language. You give me something to think about.
On the bible, good point. I was purposefully focusing on the authority issues but you’re right, not accepting the authority of scripture does not necessarily mean unfamiliarity with scripture.
On relationships, yes I should have made that clearer. Agree totally. Where I often find affinity with Pagans is in shared creativity and curiosity. Relationship means going beyond the purely religious discussion.

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Matt Stone

2011-04-16

Kat, thanks for sharing. I think there’s much room for reconciliation, and reconciliation requires repentance from judgmental attitudes and an honest assessment of how destructive they can be. It’s more than feeling sorry, it means actively seeking to build bridges.

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Thalia

2011-04-16

I came because I’m a friend of Jarred on Facebook. I turned to Paganism because it gave me more of an (ANY) outlet for my spiritual gifts, and now I’m seeking other Liberal Christians I can make common cause with. So I want to say I totally agree with what he said. In another generation, there will be more people “born pagan,” but right now, many are seeking shelter from a religiously-reinforced abuse or othering (which is why feminism and gay-friendly are such strong currents), so pretending they’ve never heard of Jesus or most of the things you’re told to quote from the Bible is exactly that–pretending. It may also be triggering.
I agree with the “personal” comments and would like to underline: Pagans are individual and experiential and if you tell them what the love of Christ brings to your life and how YOU talk to him, it will mean so much more than what the Church or Bible told you.

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Matt Stone

2011-04-16

Thalia, there are so many Christians who need to hear that last comment. Thanks for that.
It may come as a surprise that I don’t identify as a liberal Christian myself (I see myself as anabaptist Christian) but don’t take that to mean I’m any less willing to make common cause. In fact I see the real challenge here is reaching out to reformed Christians and pentecostal Christians who seem the most prone to demonization.
With regard to the Bible, I think the main thing is avoiding assumptions. Here in Australia we do have many families for whom Christianity is many generations in the past (or even non-existent if they’re migrants from non-Western countries) and who’s understanding of the bible and different Christian traditions is negligible at best. Yet, I myself knew more about the Bible than some Christians even before I became a Christian, so I know exactly where Jarred is coming from. We can’t assume ignorance either. This is why listening is so important. We need to come to each conversation with an open mind.

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Valerie

2011-04-16

Matt,
As a Pagan myself, and a fellow Human Being, I would like to thank you from the bottom of my heart for promoting conversation. It’s the first step in the right direction, and I hope more people from all paths will start to do the same. Also, thank you for having the sense to capitalize the word Pagan 🙂

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John W. Morehead

2011-04-17

Thanks for taking a crack at this, Matt. I’d add a few thoughts of my own.
Do…develop genuine relationships with Pagans because they are people, just like you would those of any other spirituality or religion.
And the related suggestion:
Don’t….develop relationships as a means to the end of their conversion. This is an inappropriate use of relationships, and people can “smell” such inauthentic attempts.
Do…engage in dialogue for a multiplicity of reasons. See my “Eleven reasons for dialogue with people of other faiths” by Bob Robinson at my blog Morehead’s Musings for a listing of a variety of reasons.
And the related suggestion:
Don’t…engage in dialogue merely as another form of evangelism. Evangelism can be an element, when it is understood by both parties and welcome by a dialogue partner, but should not be proclamation in disguise.
Do…recognize that for some in various religious or spiritual traditions that proselytism, and the thought of conversion, is considered a form of identity theft. To be who they are as individuals and within a culture is intimately connected to their religious identity. This needs to be the subject of interreligious dialogue.
Don’t…engage in the use of dialogue with “sales scripts,” preformulated mini speeches where the goal is to close the deal of conversion without genuine listening, vulnerability, self-criticism, and back and forth.
Do…engage in acts of hospitality. In so doing we act as Christ and perform the gospel on God’s stage of life and embody the Kingdom and the life to come.
I hope these thoughts are helpful.

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Matt Stone

2011-04-17

Yes, John, very helpful. I can see the “relationship” section requires some more detailed elaboration from the various comments here. I also affirm the multiple reasons for dialogue. While I consider (Christ-like) evangelism a valid reason, it’s far from the only valid reason, so I affirm the value of dialogue even when the gospel is rejected. Dialogue for mutual understanding, dialogue for peace building, dialogue for the pure sake of friendship, these are unfortunately too lightly dismissed by many. Where there is conversation there is hope for a better world.

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Matt Stone

2011-04-17

Valerie, I hope so too and warm blessings back your way 🙂

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John W. Morehead

2011-04-17

Valerie, and others, you might enjoy reading Beyond the Burning Times: A Pagan and Christian in Dialogue, by Philip Johnson and Gus diZerega (Lion, 2009), which I had the privilege of editing. There you will find respectful members of both religious communities conversing on key issues in respectful ways.

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Matt Stone

2011-04-17

Here’s some other articles along the same lines that you may find interesting in terms of further Pagan-Christian conversation:
How to treat a Pagan Old Testament style
http://mattstone.blogs.com/christian/2009/07/how-to-treat-a-pagan-old-testament-style.html
Respecting Strange Gods
http://mattstone.blogs.com/christian/2008/03/respecting-strange-gods.html
The Sacred Marriage in Pagan and Christian Dialogue
http://mattstone.blogs.com/christian/2009/04/the-sacred-marriage-in-pagan-and-christian-dialogue.html

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Lucy J

2011-04-17

Most of what you have recommended, Matt et al, seems to be applicable to relating healthily to any person, whether they be a Pagan or not.
My husband, Andrew, and I just had a recent conversation about the evangelism “tactics” which many Christians seem to perpetuate. We concluded that it was insincere to enter conversations with people if the only thing you were interested in was getting them to the point of the so-called “Sinner’s Prayer”, or inviting them to attend a “Church Service” where they would “miraculously” become enslaved to some kind of religious system…
I think a lot of Christians are afraid they might be “tainted”, and too often verge on “spirituall racism” in their approach to conversations with people they consider to be “the other”.
Generally, my experience has been that people usually enjoy a rich converation salted with humour and respect, and that there’s nothing like having a good meal together to demonstrate cordiality of relatinship… maybe just a “coffee” (or some other mutually acceptable beverage) would do in some circumstances.
To make friends, you have to be a friend, and I do love the way Jesus called his close followers “friends”, not just servants. As a life-time Christian, that’s what I am now endeavouring most to be… a friend of Jesus and a friend to others.

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Paleo

2011-04-21

Mr. Stone, thank you for encouraging your Christian peers to treat Pagans with respect. I’d like to add my opinion on a situation that often shuts Pagans down from listening to Christians, which is, as a way to exit an argument or attempt at conversion, Christians sometimes end with “I’ll pray for you.” Many Pagans would place this in the category of a curse, an attempt to hijack free will and influence them without their permission. Most Pagans consider it wrong to pray/do a ritual/create a spell directly involving someone else without their knowledge or desire, even for benificial things such as healing. IMO, general Christian prayers for health, peace, and fellowship are very welcome, but a prayer to supernaturally force me to convert to a belief system would qualify as evil.

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Alex Pendragon

2011-04-21

As an ex-catholic (by baptism, not by personal choice) now Wiccan, I have a few (and I stress a VERY few Christian friends whom I respect immensely because I have witnessed them walking the walk rather than talking the talk. Although I personally cannot accept their beliefs for myself (having witnessed the horrific intolerance and hypocrisy of so-called “Christianity” in all forms for most of my life), I still believe that all people must be respected for what is in their hearts, be that some form of monotheism or even total lack of belief in anything supernatural. When religion is used as a weapon rather than a mending, it represents the evil Christians continually harp on as “Satanic”, something I believe is in the hearts of men and not out here lying in wait to eat their children. So, casually mention in passing that you are a Christian, and demonstrate it by how you treat me and our fellow humans, and you WILL develop a fast friend. Treat me with disrespect and pity for not being “saved”, and I will quickly remove myself from your company. If anything, it will be YOU I need to save myself from, rather than the love I have for my Earth, my family, and all of creation.

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Ian Phanes

2011-04-21

Well written! As someone who is both a practicing Christian and clergy in my local pagan community, I appreciate the thoughtfulness and respect you demonstrate.
I’m going to link to this post on my blog now.

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Matt B

2011-04-21

This is a good list, and several comments from all sides help make it even better. But there’s one thing you’re missing, and I think it’s the number one reason why conversation between Pagans and Christians tends to be so difficult.
Do… accept that other faiths are valid.
You see, I read your list, and as I said, it’s a good list. Your explanations are good, too. The comments and your responses are excellent. But in the end, it still feels like “okay, so, here’s how we convert them!” guide.
And as long as that is true, you will never be able to really have a valid, valuable, trusted relationship with other people. Faith is not Pokemon; you don’t need to collect everyone. They aren’t trying to recruit you – the “not all Pagans are the same” comment certainly applies, but evangelism is largely frowned upon and in some cases explicitly forbidden. Don’t try to recruit them, and you’ll find your conversations – and relationships – are far more productive.
I bet you’d even end up with more actual, interested, valued converts that way, too.

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Meical abAwen

2011-04-21

“Yes, there are some things Pagans do which are incompatable with Christianity, but please, please, please, check between real things and imagined things before you launch into critiques.”
Can you elaborate on that? I have never seen any activity of my fellow pagans that is incompatible with Christianity. Real Christianity, that is, not political Christianity.
I agree wholeheartedly with what Paleo said:
“I’d like to add my opinion on a situation that often shuts Pagans down from listening to Christians, which is, as a way to exit an argument or attempt at conversion, Christians sometimes end with “I’ll pray for you.” Many Pagans would place this in the category of a curse, an attempt to hijack free will and influence them without their permission.”
That kind of disrespect immediately shuts down any potential for meaningful dialogue. And in general, among most pagans I know, ANY hint that the person they are talking to considers Christianity to be the
“only” way is indicative of fundamental disrespect.

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Sophie Gale

2011-04-21

“I gather many assume conversations with Pagans are unavoidably adversarial and therefore scary and best left to ‘experts.’”
I find this entire post condescending and creepy. I am a member of our local chapter of the Interfaith Alliance and all for “dialog and understanding,” but let me tell you, I am no more interested in details of your personal relationship with Jesus than I am in the relationship between probiotics and the flora in your gut. I would not dream on casual acquaintance sharing my personal relationship with my Goddess.
Take this back to your flock: Evangelicals suffer from what I call “conversion anxiety.” Evangelicals are neurotic about Pagans “converting” their children because Evangelicals are hell-bent on converting anything that breathes. Pagans are not interested in converting anyone, and we WILL assume that anyone who comes at us with that pious look and cloying voice to be the adversary!
When anyone wants to “share” Jesus with me, I send them to Matthew 25:31-46. Even though I was alienated from Christianity, I had no quarrel with Jesus. I can’t stand many of the people He hangs out with, but I have no quarrel with Him–and most of the time I feel comfortable that I am still on His right side. So if you folks feel like you just have to have a relationship with me, tell me what you are doing to fulfill 25:35-40 and ask if I want to help. Then shut up and get back to work!

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Ian Phanes

2011-04-21

@ Meical abAwen
You write:
“I have never seen any activity of my fellow pagans that is incompatible with Christianity.”
Most pagans worship multiple gods. The vast majority of Christians throughout its history consider that incompatible with Christianity.
(Granted, I’m an exception, but I’m a polytheist who worships Jesus and YHWH among the other gods and powers I worship. And I’m well aware that I am outside of the tradition in doing so.)

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P. Sufenas Virius Lupus

2011-04-21

@Ian Phanes: Not necessarily! The Greek Magical Papyri, which are documents created by Graeco-Egyptian syncretic polytheists, have references to Iao Sabaoth and various other Hebraic entities (e.g. angels, etc.), and a few Graeco-Egyptian spells also have the name of Jesus in them in some form. This may not be “worship” in the common sense, but it at least acknowledges them and that they have power.
I have no problem acknowledging Iao Sabaoth myself, and do on a very regular basis. But, I’d be in the same boat as many late antique Graeco-Egyptians in doing so…and, I’d argue that you would be, too.
The difference between acknowledging, and even worshipping these gods–Iao Sabaoth, Jesus, and so forth–and being Christian, I think, is the polytheism. For us, these are gods, but are not the only gods (nor does trinitarian theology need be accepted). Just as many Christians consider our various gods to be demons (and some Muslims consider them to be djinn), we can consider their gods, saints, and angels as other gods and divine beings, but we’re not obliged to accept their particular theologies on the matter.
@Matt Stone–thank you for this post, it’s good to see things like this. I would agree, however, with the reservation that Matt B gave above. One of my very best friends, an Irish cradle Catholic, has attended several rituals I’ve had over the years, and before the first one, he said he might have to opt out of some of the activities done because of his own faith commitments, but that he had no doubt that (in his view, and that of the best traditions of the documents of Vatican II, which the current pope doesn’t uphold at all) the Holy Spirit was working in diverse forms (i.e. my gods) for my highest good. I have accepted that as his own theological interpretation, and we have gone from there…and, in the end, there was nothing in what we did on that occasion or any that followed which he found incompatible with his own faith commitments.

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Jadelyn

2011-04-21

“Do… accept that other faiths are valid.
You see, I read your list, and as I said, it’s a good list. Your explanations are good, too. The comments and your responses are excellent. But in the end, it still feels like “okay, so, here’s how we convert them!” guide. ”
THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS.
I cannot say it enough. A Christian who wants to be friends and, because we’re both metaphysically-interested people or whatever, likes to talk religion with me, that’s fine. I have two very dear, very Christian friends (I myself am eclectic Pagan/Witch), and we talk religion sometimes, but always just as another topic of conversation in an established friendship. This whole list is a good starting point, but it still feels like “How to stealth-convert them”.
If you want to be my friend, be my friend, and I will be your friend. If, as my friend, you want to talk about our respective religions, that’s fine. I like metaphysical debates, and odds are, if you’re the kind of person I enjoy talking to, so do you. That’s cool.
But if a Christian wants to “dialogue” with me just for the sake of scoring another conversion point, even if they follow all of these (admittedly excellent and well-thought-out) dos and don’ts, I can still feel their innate disrespect of my chosen path vibrating under the substance of the conversation, and I will have no interest in continuing the conversation because I know what they’re trying to do, even if they’re not open about it.
Talking about religion as a genuine exchange of interests with a friend: good.
Faking an interest in a Pagan’s religion to get them to listen to your spiel/genuinely listening for the purpose of finding weak spots to work on: bad.

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George Marshall

2011-04-21

Matt,
Fantastically written. I was honestly excited to read this post. The main tenets, of course, should properly be applied during interfaith communication between any two faiths, not only those of Christianity and Paganism.
Conversations like what you’ve described are always delightful when the main goal for conversation is simply sharing and reaching an understanding of each other.
Take care,
George

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Apel

2011-04-21

Thanks for this blog post, Matt. It makes a lot of sense to me, as do many of the comments by other Pagans.
As a devout Pagan I love connecting with others who are also deeply spiritual, regardless of religion. We often have much more in common with each other than with people who don’t bother their God(s) on a daily basis.
I have a number of Christian friends who I enjoy talking to. In addition to the points that have been made in the post and the comments, what makes these friendships work for me is that these Christians have a strong sense of their own personal spirituality and they can see the similarity between that and my spirituality.
I think what makes these friendships work for my Christian friends is that I also respect their religion. E.g. I wouldn’t suggest divination when they are faced with a difficult decision. That wouldn’t be helpful. Asking “What happens when you pray for guidance about this?” is constructive and respectful.
That’s how I like to treat others and be treated myself.

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Hecate Demetersdatter

2011-04-21

Ah, yes, if you just speak slowly and enunciate clearly, it can be so easy to talk to Pagans. Be sure to use hand gestures, as they respond so well to body language.
I’ve taken the liberty of responding to this post at my blog:
Here.

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Morgaine

2011-04-21

It’s sad that there needs to be a guide for religious human beings to act human with one another. I’m a Druid Priestess several decades in my practice now.
I completed my D.Min. in Christianity some ten or twelve years ago because I was genuinely interested. Perhaps if there are Christians genuinely interested in the practices of the Pagan community so much so that they need a guide on how to not be childishly rude and offensive to every “other” they meet, they would do well to commence a journey of self-exploration and education instead of attempting to employ tactics in “relationships” that are exclusive and not necessarily genuine solely for the purpose of … I’m sorry, what was the purpose?
I have not found Christians to be unmanageable to the point where I need a manual or steering guide to hold in-depth conversations with them. I have not found Pagans that way either. As members of a diverse world, it seems strange that we should have to teach each other such basic elements of conversation as though we are strangers because of our religious differences.

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Sarah

2011-04-21

‘But in the end, it still feels like “okay, so, here’s how we convert them!” guide.’
Indeed. There’s a bit of condescension inherent in the concept of proselytizing in the first place, though, and I’m not sure there’s a way to resolve that… For many Christians, proselytizing is an essential part of Christianity.
@Thalia: …And even those of us who are “born Pagan” can’t help but know a great deal about Christianity as we are surrounded by it every day. Sure there are bits and pieces here and there that we don’t know, references we don’t get and such, but none of us will be completely ignorant of the teachings of Jesus.
And, in my experience with my fellow “second generation” Pagans, many of us make a point of studying Christianity (amongst other religions), simply because it is so widely-referenced and influential in our culture. Though it certainly is true that we aren’t typically “triggered” or embittered by past experiences with Christianity.
@MattStone: Though I have to say it, if you’re going to try to convert me, I really do appreciate your doing so with a fuller understanding of who I am and what I do and believe rather than simply from a position of ignorance.
Besides, I appreciate vigorous theological debate with Christians, when the Christians in question are up for it and not just parroting Scripture – I don’t think we’ll either of us change our minds, but we certainly can do each other the service of challenging the other and allowing us to strengthen and refine our own viewpoints.

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Kain5100

2011-04-21

So, what happens when the Wiccans make more sense and you want to convert?

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T

2011-04-21

Hi Matt, I have two questions about your post.
1. Are you having these conversations with Pagans in the hopes of converting them to Christianity?
2. Do you believe that Pagans’ souls will be tortured in hell for all eternity after death?
Thanks!

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Meg

2011-04-21

Thanks for this, especially the fourth point. As a Pagan and (non-resentful) ex-Christian, I think it’s so important that people on both sides remember that Christianity is not just about contemporary politics. Jesus’ message of compassion is more or less universal, and I think people of any spiritual path could come away with something positive from it.
And yeah, the word “respectful” is really key. Of course, this applies to everyone when speaking with anyone of a different path: Pagan, Muslim, Hindu, and so on. You can’t get anywhere if you don’t show respect for the other person’s ideas and experiences.
Again, thanks. The world needs more sensible people who are willing to open up the lines of interfaith communication.

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Meg

2011-04-21

“Do… accept that other faiths are valid.”
Good point. People not doing this is what creates problems in interfaith dialogue in the first place.
I would extend that to (as I’m sure others have already mentioned) “don’t try to convert me.” I’m genuinely interested in hearing why someone adheres to a particular path and what they have found to be fulfilling and enriching in it. That’s all wonderful, but don’t use it to try to subtly (or not-so-subtly) convince me that this path is somehow superior to mine. That’s so aggravating.

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Meg

2011-04-21

Also, addressing my fellow Pagans: If a Christian wants to talk religion with you, please be polite, even if you feel like they’re trying to proselytize. It’s fine to defend your path if you feel it’s necessary, but if you’re snarky, combative, or self-righteous while you do it, you accomplish nothing. You just make us look bad. The person will just come away with a (more?) negative view of Pagans. This is counter-productive.

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Moe

2011-04-21

Some good ideas Matt.
I found out about you through the Witch Hunt web site.
As a Pagan for 30 years now, one of my problems with talking with Christians about my religion is the amount of ignorance they seem to have about faiths other than their own.
I’m not trying to be insulting here or mean any offense, so please understand that whatever I am saying here is not meant in malice. I understand that Christians approaching people like me with the intent to convert me have certain view sin their heads already. What they tend not to realize is that some of what they actually say to people like me can imply their superiority over me, treating me like I am a child and regurgitating what they have been told by those they trust about religions like mine ( which BTW tends to be distortions and outright lies.
I should say this. There are good reasons why Pagans, including me, distrust Christians. I would like to have bridges of understanding between Christians and Pagans, with none of the phony tactics like pretending to be friends with us in order to convert us. I have heard in passing there are some Christian books published recently that try to show that but haven’t come across any specific titles yet.
I admit to a learned distrust of any Christian who shows an interest in me when they find out I am Pagan. I would like to see Christians actually care without conversion about us.
Mainly I should add that Christians should understand what we are and are NOT and not try the sin and your deities are evil doctrines.

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The_L

2011-04-21

Here’s a biggie: Do not mention Hell. At all. Not only do the majority of Pagans not believe in such a place, but occasionally some of the less pleasant Christians use it as an excuse to belittle or even disown their Pagan children. Even for people who haven’t gone through such harassment, this is a potential trigger. At best, Hell-speak will decrease the chances of the Pagan in question converting to Christianity down the road. At worst, it will encourage him/her to avoid Christians whenever possible.

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harmonyfb

2011-04-21

There’s very little that’s as offensive (or as creepy!) as someone pretending to be interested in ‘dialogue’ or ‘friendship’ when their REAL goal is to subvert the other’s faith. To present that kind of false friendship is vile, and they’re soon unmasked – because when you don’t buy what they’re selling, they invariably turn nasty (it’s my opinion that those who stoop to this type of conversion tactic are so weak in their own beliefs that they seek to reinforce them by convincing others…and when the other isn’t convinced, their faith is threatened and so they get angry.)
A conversation where your secret aim is to convert and coerce rather than *understand* isn’t a dialogue. Please do us the courtesy of dropping the pretense.

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Matt Stone

2011-04-21

Apel said: “We often have much more in common with each other than with people who don’t bother their God(s) on a daily basis.” Absolutely. I find I have far more in common with most Pagans I know over most Atheists I know. And I like your approach, questions regarding “guidance” open up much more space for conversation. I doubt, for instance, that too many here could guess my own approach without projecting a few stereotypes along the way. I doubt I could do much different with you either. But if we approach the question as an exercise in mutual exploration there’s much for both of us to learn.

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Matt Stone

2011-04-21

@Harmony, what makes you think that anything I’ve said is pretense? Is it based on something I’ve said or is it just something you’re assuming?
I have not hidden that I think Jesus has something powerful to offer. But I am absolutely serious that, even should you reject that, I still see many, many important reasons for dialogue that are not lessened by this. I have many non-Christian friends for whom I have no expectations of conversion. They are no less friends for that. I’d invite to have an open mind and consider the possibility that more harmonious relations between Christians and Pagans are possible. I know it is because I’ve experienced it. I’d invite you to try experiencing it for yourself.

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shrimplate

2011-04-21

Gah.

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Matt Stone

2011-04-21

@The_L. Well, you see the difficulty here is, Pagans mention hell more often in conversations with me than I do, so it would be very hard for me to avoid that conversation even if I wanted to. I can’t pretend it’s not Christian teaching, as Christ mentioned it more than anyone, but I do concur that the teaching has been much abused in some Christian traditions so I empathize where you or others may have been bible bashed over this. Could I suggest though, that a more dialogical approach might be for you to ask me what my view is? If you’d care to explore that question the answer may surprise you as my understanding differs in important respects from that of fundamentalists (whom I reckon might make it there first). I would in turn be interested to understand where you’re coming from and how you have been hurt by this. Reconciliation rarely comes from ignoring elephants in living rooms. Since you raise the topic I consider it discussion worthy. I just think we need to find more mutually respectful ways of discussing the differences.

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Matt Stone

2011-04-21

@Moe, I know of specific books if you’re really interested but I suspect the credibility would need to be built up a bit first before you’d want to fork out cash. For what it’s worth the vast majority of my knowledge of Paganism is directly from Pagans – online and in real life – and I distain the vast majority of Christian books on the subject myself for much the same reasons you do. Too much regurgitation, too little understanding. For my own part, there is much I admire about Paganism. Obviously there are things that I don’t or I’d be one myself but don’t assume my interest is entirely other directed. There’s things I like to learn about Paganism just for me 🙂

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Matt Stone

2011-04-21

Would I convert to Wicca if it made more sense of me? I would. In fact, I rejected Christianity for many years, exploring eco-pantheism, New Age and Zen Buddism along the way.

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Sabrina The Ink Witch

2011-04-21

I see excellent conversation here between Christians and Pagans which is very refreshing. We can all speak with respect towards one another and make lines of communication and sharing available.
Belief is a personal and sacred part of life. One should not try to convert another. Share? Yes. Convert? No.
Faith and Belief are very personal matters.
many blessings,
Sabrina
The Ink Witch

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Matt Stone

2011-04-22

T, in answer to your questions:
1/ This post was written primarily for Christians, not Pagans. It was written in the hope of encouraging Christians to treat Pagans with more respect and Christ-likeness wherever and however they find themselves interacting with them. So, no, it was not composed with the singular intent of converting you or even directly addressing you. That being said, I appreciate Pagans engaging with it. Now, if an indirect consequence is that some Pagans look at the way of Jesus with renewed appreciation I will not complain. But if all that is achieved is that a few people treating one another better I’d be more than satisfied. It would be a mistake to view this entirely through an conversion filter.
2/ Your question contains a number of suppositions that I would deconstruct. Firstly, I learn towards annihilationism, which is to say, I see scripture pointing towards hell itself being destroyed in the final judgement. Secondly, the soul, as commonly spoken of in the west, seems to me to owe more to Platonic teaching than Hebrew teaching so I’m far from convinced you or I even “have” one in the way that its conventionally spoken of. To me the resurrection points in a different direction.

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Jarred

2011-04-22

Matt, let me just say that I admire you for your grace under pressure. Thank you for your generous hospitality.

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Ian Phanes

2011-04-22

@ P. Sufenas Virius Lupus
“Not necessarily”? What part of “most” and “vast majority” don’t you understand? And it appears that you completely ignored that I was describing how orthodox Christians perceive the situation, not how polytheists perceive it.

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Camille in Raleigh

2011-04-22

Some of us (like me, for example) want nothing at all to do with Christianity, and see the “relationship” as abusive (it can be summed up as “love me and do what I say without question, or I’ll make you pay forever”–that is not loving in the least).
My point is this:
What I think would be more respectful is a paragraph about how Pagans have the right to their own beliefs, and that Christians should respect that (and, more importantly, learn to take “NO” for an answer) rather than a “how-to” on pretending to nice with an eye toward conversion.

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Matt Stone

2011-04-22

Thanks Jarred. I accept reconciliation often requires standing in the middle, resisting polarization and consequently coping it from both sides. Our own relationship very much gives me hope though.

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Jarred

2011-04-22

You know, some of you are accusing Matt of seeking to convert Pagans and being a “stealth evangelist” based on nothing more than your presuppositions. You have no evidence that this is what he is trying to do. Those of us Pagans who have been friends with him for over a year have evidence to the contrary.
But feel free to continue making quick judgments of someone you don’t really know.

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Camille in Raleigh

2011-04-22

The guilty flee where none pursue.

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Jarred

2011-04-22

1. I fail to see how that response makes any sense in this context.
2. I do, however, find it somewhat ironic that you’d quote a seemingly random verse from the Bible.

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