I was just wondering how many of you, if any, have heard of the O.T.O., or Ordo Templi Orientis to give it its full name?
I find the O.T.O. comes up relatively frequently in conversations with Pagan friends, though often at the butt of some joke about how obsessed they are with order in ritual (many of my Pagan friends are shamanic inclined, so you see they find the O.T.O. a little obsessive-compulsive). So I thought I’d see for myself, as best as I can.
Curious Christian 
I’ve heard of the O.T.O. I suspect that’s not exactly surprising, though. 😉
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No, not surprising 😉
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I’ve heard of ’em too. Wasn’t George McDonald a member at one point? Pretty sure Dennis Wheatley references them somewhere …
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Dear friend of mine was a serious member for many years; the effects of some of the rituals are no joke so …no thanks.
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Andii, not sure. What I know isn’t that much. Only what Ive picked up from Pagans and Magicians following other paths, and the few scraps of Crowley that Ive read. No first hand experience.
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Caitlin, I would be interested in hearing what you know and why you found it disturbing. Also, why do you think people get into it?
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Wicca and the Christian Heritage mentions it too. href=”http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0415254140/?tag=amawid-21&link_code=ur2&creative=9490&camp=2506″
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Now that looks like an interesting book! What’s it actually like? Would you recommend it?
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I am an ex-member of the OTO and am surprised it isn’t better known among Christians.
The OTO teaches that Aleister Crowley was The Beast 666 from the Book of Revelations, and that he is a prophet on par with Moses, etc. They have a holy book that was “channeled” by Crowley called “The Book of the Law.” This book is virulently anti-christian and quite violent.
Remember Matthew Murray, who attacked two Christian groups in Colorado in December of 2007? He was an OTO member and when he committed his mass murders he had a copy of The Book of the Law in his pocket! Lately I have seen him referred to on the web as “The OTO Gunman”.
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How do you know that Matt Murray had a Book of the Law in his pocket? I am an OTO member and don’t like you spreading a fake rumor like that.
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Lvx
I have a copy of that Liber’, Crowley claimed quite a few things but then he was also quite adept at self publicity. The Liber in question is not exactly ‘anti-christian’ if anything it is a pretty naf understanding of Kem’. Sat down and read through it and the version I have has Crowley’s facsimiles.
Which pages do you think are virulently antichristian and I will have another look.
Matthew Murray was not a member of the OTO he merely aspired to be but then that poor lad had so many grandiose dreams its a darn shame he did not have a good CPN to speak to before the dreams splintered and he took other people out.
AS far as I have located the rumour of having a copy of the Liber’ is just that a rumour generated as part of the narrative to explain why he killed people within a church. Its far easier for some Christian Groups to believe someone killed Christian young people because they belonged to an occult group than that they killed people as a symptom of extreme mental distress.
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> How do you know that Matt Murray had a Book of the Law in his pocket?
It’s in the autopsy report. See:
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/jan/08/autopsy-gunman-matthew-murray-killed-himself/
If you’re really an OTO member you’re no doubt also familiar with The Eye of Ra….
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Caitlin, I’m afraid you’re very misinformed.
> Crowley claimed quite a few things
What is important here is what the OTO claims; see for instance
http://oto-usa.org/about_thelema.html
> Which pages do you think are virulently antichristian
Well, I’d start with Chapter III, verses 51 and 55. But I do take your point; Crowley’s writing is peppered with what might be construed as pro-Christian statements. Unless, of course, you are aware that the OTO “initiated” interpretation of Christianity is as an extended sexual metaphor; Christ as a metaphor for the penis (that “dies” and is “reborn” again), the true Body and Blood of the Eucharist being the mingled male and female sexual fluids, etc.
> Matthew Murray was not a member of the OTO
Incorrect, though the OTO is trying very hard to spread that disinformation. At the time of his death Murray was a Minerval (the first initiated degree) in good standing.
> the rumour of having a copy of the Liber
See my last post…
> someone killed Christian young people because they belonged to an occult group
I’m not implying here that the OTO “caused” the killings, or anything like that. The problem is that the OTO attracts borderline personalities like flies and its extreme theology can supply them with a framework for their bizarre ideations. Also, if you believe in demonic powers, etc., the OTO is filled with people who actively try to summon demons! How can that not be a recipe for disaster?
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Lvx,
Please re-read my post of the 24th March.
The biggest problem with the www is often the lack of traceable citation.
News reports have editorial bias.
I find for example the use of words in news reports rather interesting ‘according’.
I would also be more interested in the meaning that Murray gave to what he choose to wear rather than that attributed by subsequent web gossip.
A desire to join any religious group can be a symptom of a person with a form of mental distress who is trying to make sense of their world.
To access the coroners report itself rather than the reports about the report a fee is payable.
I doubt he was in good standing Lvx; he seems to have been so unstable he was spilling out everywhere. Belonging to a small student group for a short period of time is not the emphasis being thrown across the web by gossip minded Christians http://www.denverpost.com/ci_7696043
If it had not been the OTO it would have been something else that he would have been attracted to as prism to focus his fractured mind and ripped emotions through.
The extreme end of ‘dominion’ theology and ‘demonology spiritual warfare’ in some areas of Christianity and also attracts such people too and its an area of pastoral care that needs great sensitivity, self awareness and deep understanding of other people.
Trying to locate the more objective primary sources can be great fun.
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The Rocky Mt News is not “web gossip”. And Murray’s membership status was discussed at length on internal OTO lists; he was indeed “in good standing” (that is an OTO technical term btw). But I understand now that you’re one of those people who are not swayed by evidence that contradicts their cherished preconceptions. So go right on “believing” and “doubting”, but unless you have any evidence of your claims (heck, even “web gossip” would be *something*) you’re not actually making an argument.
For the rest of you, if you really want a little perspective on the OTO’s attitude towards Christianity a good place to start is this little ritual by Crowley:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/oto/lib70.htm
Somehow seems a little more, ah, “extreme”, than anything I’ve seen out of dominion theology.
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