Curious Christian

Reflections on culture, nature, and spirituality from a Christian perspective

Dragon Rouge – Ordo Draconis et Atri Adamantis

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Matt Stone

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Dragon Rouge, not to be confused with the Baz Luhrmann movie, is one of the more obscure left hand path traditions I have come across in my virtual wanderings.

Otherwise known as the Ordo Draconis et Atri Adamantis, Dragon Rouge is a Nordic order grounded in four primary magickal traditions: the Goetic Qabalah, the Odinic Runosophy, Tantra and Alchemy. You can read more for yourself at www.dragonrouge.net.

For my Christian readers, I would like to ask, have you ever wondered how you engage left hand paths? Thoughtfully I mean? Personally, I find it interesting that Dragon Rouge defines the left hand path as “going against the grain”. Is that not, in certain respects, what Jesus calls Christians to do? I think there are connection points here for those open to the Spirit’s leading. In my own experience, left hand path practitioners are open to conversing with Christians who don’t run with the herd but think for themselves.

18 responses to “Dragon Rouge – Ordo Draconis et Atri Adamantis”

Caitlin

2009-03-19

Christ did not conform to the worlds structures he challenged them.
If you wish to engage in discussion a nice hot cup of tea works usually worked well as a starting point for me; I do tend to think I am still LHP but I choose Christ.
I am more concerned about the problems caused by corrupted light as that is where I consider real evil to be.

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Matt Stone

2009-03-20

Have you ever read John Smulo’s article on Left Hand Christianity? My mate Nigel hosts it on his site http://www.jesus.com.au. The full link is http://www.jesus.com.au/library/John_Smulo-Christs_Advocate.pdf

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Caitlin

2009-03-20

Yes and I sent comments to him via email.
Johns research and other articles that appear in Sacred Tribes are amongst some of the best and most balanced I have read and one of the few sources I am happy recommending to fellow theology students; this does include some of the other theological journals I mooch through as time allows.

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Matt Stone

2009-03-21

Caitlin, I am just wondering, have I met you before via circle and cross talk?
Also, do you hang with any left hand path types, online or offlne?

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Caitlin

2009-03-21

I occasionally post on C&C.
Meet Pastor Phil when he stayed with Cern couple of years back but was absolutely shattered at the time from working silly hours at a church I think we spent most of the time weeding Cerns garden and picking blackberries rather than talking. I have known Cern and Jules for a few years and yes I do occasionally email with others who have those human LHP tendencies but like me have choosen Christ as the better way.
We tend not to use online forums as it gets so old dealing with the rabid numpty evangelicals who would be shocked to the very core of their being to discover just how much time we do spend communicating to each other about, thinking about, discussing scripture and praying to on behalf of this very needy world that awesome ineffable God.
I mostly hang out at the churches doorways with my sleeves rolled up looking for the marginalized on the edges of the church muttering at God about lousy hours and PCC’s.

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Matt Stone

2009-03-21

Yes I remember when Phil visited Cern. Times like those make me very conscious of how far away I live. Thought you sounded familiar.
I mostly hang out with the marginalized myself, though I have found more internal balance in the last few years which has allowed me to take up an anything but marginal ministry leader position this year.
Though I wouldn’t call myself LHP per se, you’ve probably gathered I’m not a herd guy and have customized my pathway considerably. My youth was spent in the metal underground and you can draw some conclusions from that, beyond what I’ve said publically.
You may want to sign up here – http://www.facebook.com/groups.php#/group.php?gid=62657621398 (it’s a helpful way of us ex-whatevers connecting with one another)

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Caitlin

2009-03-22

Thanks Matt,
I need to wade through more assignments than I know what to do with and begin to plan a work sked’ for after Easter first.
I may be good with the old quill pen and parchment but my grasp of modern technology is poor so I will see if I can track down a tame teenager I can bribe with a Starbuck’s to talk me through how to join up. May take me a week or two.

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Matt Stone

2009-03-22

No rush, but I’d be interested in meeting those other LHP Christians you mention as well. Very keen in networking with disciples with more ‘exotic’ backgrounds. I find there’s stuff you can share that others just don’t get.

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Thomas Karlsson

2009-10-16

I found your interesting blog through a frater of Dragon Rouge. I appreciate the open-minded attitude to the LHP shown above on this page and would like to accentuate the fact that according to Dragon Rouge it is necessarily not a contradiction to be a practitioner of the LHP and Christian at the same time. It is a matter of how you interpret things. If one read the Bible strictly dualistic, one is likely to reject the concepts and symbols of Dragon Rouge where the light bearer Lucifer is emphazised as a principle of individuation and illumination, but if you read the Bible holistic you might come to the conclusion that the Lightbearer and Morningstar of OT could be the same as Christ in NT, and that the Serpent of Eden not necessarily only introduced simple evilness but rather a long, but important path toward spiritual adulthood. In the Kabbalah, both the Jewish and the Christian, the Serpent has been equaled to Messiah/Christ. It has also been argued that Jesus was the most successful exponent of an antinomian LHP spiritual path. Best wishes, Thomas Karlsson, founder of Dragon Rouge, author of Qabalah, Qliphoth and Goetic Magic.

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Matt Stone

2009-10-16

Thomas, though the name Lucifer (“the light bearer”) is too popularly associated with Satan (“the adversary”) for me to ever invoke the name so positively in so public a forum, I think its worth noting that Satan is never called “Lucifer” in the Bible, at least not directly.
The only use of “Lucifer” in the Bible is an obscure prophecy in Isaiah 14, which may or may not relate to a fallen angel, and some passages in the New Testament that are not related to Satan at all.
I note also that, as a symbol, the snake is somwhat ambiguous, and that Moses used a bronze snake staff, the Nehushtan, to heal the Israelites of snakebite.
But I would differ in my interpretation of the Serpent of Eden. The two trees in the garden represented two mutually exclusive choises, between “life” and the “knowledge of good and evil” (note the text never refers to “knowledge” unqualified as evil). If that snake had truly been a light bearer, it would have advocated life.
So, I don’t see individuation and illumination being implied by the story, but if I were to read it into it, I would say codependancy is more implied by the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Particularly given the consequences, a la “Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.”
But that being said, there is no doubt that many Christians have taken the sheep metaphor way further than was intended or is healthy, so I affirm that individuation is an important conversation we should be having. Paul’s metaphor of the body having many parts is instructive for me here.

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Anders Grad

2009-10-17

Hi Mattstone.
I am a christian who have been a member of the Dragon Rouge for 10 years. Glad to see your post on the topic. Most of the christians in the order are catholic, but there are some who belong to protestant denominations too.
Most people are not christian however, but see no contradictions.
Since I became a member of the order and began working with the qliphothic initiation I have been more and more drawn to the pauline letters, which incidently many gnostic groups also tended to be inspired by.

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Matt Stone

2009-10-17

Anders, could you tell me more about qliphothic initiation? For instance, I’ve read that “Thamiel represents duality whereas Kether represents unity.” If the goal is to transcend duality does this mean there is some sort of casting out? Or some sort of merging? Or what? Forgive me, but while I know something of qabalah, the qliphoth is not something I’ve had a lot to do with. Enlighten me.
Also, you mention gnostic groups, would you consider yourselves a gnostic group, or even a Gnostic group? If so, which Gnostic gospels do you draw from? I am wondering to what extent the Christians in your group self-identify with Gnosticism.

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Anders Grad

2009-10-17

I recommend that you take a look at the book “Qabalah, Qliphoth and Goetic Magic” by Thomas Karlsson. Where also questions related to your last post to him is discussed.
It is true that the word Lucifer does not appear in most bibles in relation to either Jesus or the Serpent, however, in certain old latin catholic bibles the word Lucifer is used in relation to Jesus.
The Lucifer-myth is mainly something that we find in the writings of theologians however.
The Dragon Rouge is not a gnostic group in the sense that one needs to be a gnostic to be a member of the order. The order tries to contain as little dogma as possible and for those that are interested in the initiation the practice is the key to the understanding of the system.
I personally have no problem reading gnostic texts, without of course having a stereotype “sethian” view on creation and the demiurge. Interestinlgy, the view of the chaldean oracles, the corpus hermeticum, the valentinians are more interesting in relation to the left hand path than the Sethian.

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Anders Grad

2009-10-17

On the discussion of Thaumiel.. This is a tricky discussion since it relates to so far off ideas. I will not really go into it because I have no idea what it is, really.
There are writings about it in the order, but to me it really does not say much yet..

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Matt Stone

2009-10-20

Ha, I am seeing how Christian denominational differences could have some bearing on our respective understandings on the relationship between LHP and Christianity. You say most of the Christians in the order are Catholic, so I can appreciate how they would place value in old Latin Catholic bibles and the writings of later theologians. As a Protestant though, I find secondary sources unauthoritative, albeit still interesting.
This in turn makes me wonder where there could be other gaps in perception. Catholicism tends to be much more hierachial and authoritarian that my own style of Christianity. How does Dragon Rouge approach issues of hierachy and group authority?
Interesting that you say you’re closer to Valentinian gnosticism than Sethian gnosticism. In either case I wonder how you’d respond to my latest post on story, symbol and spirituality. Would it be on the mark for you?

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Anders Grad

2009-11-04

I am personally a member of the swedish church, which incidently is protestant.
Most I have met or heard about are catholic though, yes.
Do you know any catholics in person? I don´t think the selfperception of any of the catholics i know comes close to what you write on that issue.
I don´t think the issue of hierarchy is an issue at all for members. The Dragon Rouge is a quite flat organisation.
I have not read that post. I will try to find it and comment there.

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Matt Stone

2009-11-04

Most of my family is Catholic, at least nominally, and I am former Catholic myself.
There’s a sense in which I didn’t realize how hierachial the Catholic church was till I experienced the other end of the spectrum. My more recent experience of Christianity has been with the Baptist church, which is governed by the congregation, not bishops. And we’re Australian Baptist at that, which is much more informal than its American counterparts. And I’ve experimented with house church within that context, which is more informal still, having little in the way of former structure. My Catholic family struggle to even understand it. They have so many assumptions about church which I don’t share.
Now, the Swedish church is Lutheran is it? Possibly the reason you don’t find it that different from the Catholic approach is that Lutheran-style Christianity is still pretty Catholic in some ways from our perspective. What I’m talking about is far more extreme.
Then again, we still have our herdish types, so flat structure is now guarantee against herdish behaviour.

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mmm

2012-10-25

Miluju Temnou magii

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